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Black plastic alternator ring
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

I'm not too interested in printing and selling these (mostly don't have the time to ship), but I'll make sure I post it to an online print shop like Shapeways so everyone can just order one.

This part is one of those that's easy enough to hack together it seems, but it would be nice to have one that fits close to original. I think SGKent just sold the second to last one in the northern hemisphere Laughing

I look forward to those measurements Clatter -- thank you.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

this is from another thread on the same part back in 2012. I'll try to get the other down later this week if Clatter can't get to it.

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LeeE wrote:
I did mail a copy to reidcloud.

I also posted a copy of the template in the gallery, in 68-79 Bus Other.
I don't know if it'll print to be the correct size. The center hole should be almost exactly 5 inches diameter. You can re-copy and zoom to get that, and the rest should be very close.

The one I made (cut from a Coleman fuel can) has been on my Bus for a few years now, no problems.

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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

I got the part today!

It’s kind of an odd size/shape.

Maybe it would work to trace it out with paper & pencil and mail it to you?
Going way back a couple hundred years with my methods here..

Otherwise, I should be able to make a bunch of misc. measurements and take pics with a caliper and whatnot..

Let me know what you prefer.. What you want I can get.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

gatorjos wrote:
I'm not too interested in printing and selling these (mostly don't have the time to ship), but I'll make sure I post it to an online print shop like Shapeways so everyone can just order one.

This part is one of those that's easy enough to hack together it seems, but it would be nice to have one that fits close to original. I think SGKent just sold the second to last one in the northern hemisphere Laughing

I look forward to those measurements Clatter -- thank you.


Ok, cool. I just looked at shapeways and it looks relatively straightforward

I think whatever shapeways ends up charging would be a partial determination of what is a fair price, plus whatever "design time" gatorjos and Clatter have into it, divided by the number of people who get one.
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Clatter, no need to trace it -- there's a trace drawing already circulating on this and other threads. The drawing is purported to be scaled to an 8.5 by 11" sheet of paper, so it would help me if you measure almost anything on the part, like the inside diameter of the large hole for instance or the overall size, and that will give me a sense if the scale is correct.

It's probably close enough -- I might just print one and try to install it this weekend or next. I also have an old alternator laying around somewhere and that would probably give me a sense of the dimensions.
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Alright, I got my lazy butt of the couch -- my old alternator wasn't as deeply buried as I thought. I think the alternator is all I need Clatter, so don't worry about measuring more. Looks like the 8.5x11" sheet scale factor is spot on. I'll print one out tomorrow.
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Couple of pics of the print -- seems to fit ok -- I'm not sure until I actually put it in the bus. I'm unclear what bolt that fork picks up and if that lines up right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

The fork wraps around the alternator adjustment bolt.

The print looks good to me!
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Thanks ivwshane -- that's helpful. That does mean something in my print is off. The bolt hole doesn't line up at all.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Does the seal sit on the flat on the alternator the way I have it sitting? I'll play with the geometry a bit more and print another one tomorrow
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

if you look at the drawing the dashed area is 90 degrees to the plane of the tab and body. It looks like you have allowed for that area twice - once at 90 degrees and once by adding it to the tab.

There are two bolt holes on the alternator. One sits at the bottom with a thru bolt. The other is the locking bolt.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Well, dag, I finally got some time after work last night.
Will put these up just for the record..

Looks like you nutted it to me! Very Happy


FWIW, that little tab always did seem kind of wonky the way it fit..

The thing is a little bit 'conical', as you can see here.
My guess is that is just error in the manufacture?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



It's also tapered in profile.
This measurement taken at the thickest point, at least before the inner raised 'ring'.
Here I'm trying to account for the conical shape -and- thickness.
FWIW. Rolling Eyes
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Thickness without inner 'ring' just measured without consideration of 'cone':
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Here's a measurement of the actual thickest point, including the raised inner ring.
(See also blurry drawing of what I'm measuring in background).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Trying to get overall height of the mounting tab.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Like so:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Tab ID:
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Laying it out:
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The thing isn't really a super-precise part..
I went more dorky on it than what you might need.

Looks like it's already well handled,
But,
Since I took these pics and all,
There you go.

Glad to see that this piece isn't going the way of the Dodo! Very Happy
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

What material are you planning to make this from? Assuming its going to be made with a printer using filament. That close to exhaust and in contact with the alternator it can get somewhat hot.

Probably nylon 66....would be good enough. PEI or PEEK....would be awesome and far out last the original....but you would likely use greater than $40-$50 in material for each one.

I see GFR nylon 6 filaments out there....but you do not want nylon 6. Poor long term moisture issues. Nylon 6-6 or Nylon 11 or 12.

Stay away from GFR PETG for a part like this. While it has high temp and stable melt temps....during forming.....once the part is made, over time....heat causes distortions. In a few months to a year it will look like a potato chip. Ray
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gatorjos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

thanks for all the measurements clatter! that helped me fine tune. I printed one out that is probably usable, but I dialed it in a little more with your measurements. I'm printing this one out and then will try to install it to see how it fits. It might be a little thick compared to the original, but I'm hoping the sheetmetal bends with it.

here's the v2 print
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and then the updated one (v3) with your measurements checking out pretty close for what it needs to be. It's 3 mm constant thickness, but i'd like to keep that if it fits for stiffness.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


material I'm printing is PETG. Shapeways offers an SLS Nylon, that isn't spec'ed very closely. A polyethylene bucket lid can do the job reportedly -- the PETG deflects at about the same as the HDPE of the bucket (80ºC), so I think it should be ok. PEEK or any exotics would be total overkill for this part imo -- you'd end up with a $400 alternator seal
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Yes....for sure PEEK would be overkill....but PETG....is not what you want....just like HDPE is not.
The 80°C temp you quote....176° F....is the GLASS TRANSITION temp. This being the point where it exits the hard glass-like state to a near rubber liie state......Being an amorphous plastic and actually a hybrid.....its semi-crystaline.....once it hits that glass transition temp a couple of times....it does not just stay in its normal shape and wait to re-harden into that shape like a crystalline plastic does.

It flows.....and changes shape along stress lines. All the polyethylenes pretty much do this too....except UHMW....simply because its usually pressure cast in much higher density (as sheet or plate goods).

Its not that PETG is not good material. I just think its "working" temp range is not high enough for the location it needs to be used in. And.....having worked with PETG extensively over the years.....its one of the worst for holding its form over time.....even when its not getting very hot. It also has a natural ageing characteristic like all plastic....that makes this worse.
It may be better structurally in a glass filled version.

I think you would do better with one of the nylons above nylon 6. Better heat range and much less long term form flow.

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Ray, I took a closer look at the Shapeways website. They do state it is a PA12 powder and they say the material is “heatproof” to 163°C and dishwasher safe, so I agree that is the better option over PETG for stability.

That said, I’m willing to see if the PETG holds up, and first want to fit check this version anyway before ordering a more expensive print.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Just curious, are the cheaper 3D home printers able to handle different types of plastics?

They are becoming quite affordable lately but I don't know enough about their limitations when applied to various automobile usages in order to determine if I'd just be better off using something like shapeways.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

gatorjos wrote:
Ray, I took a closer look at the Shapeways website. They do state it is a PA12 powder and they say the material is “heatproof” to 163°C and dishwasher safe, so I agree that is the better option over PETG for stability.

That said, I’m willing to see if the PETG holds up, and first want to fit check this version anyway before ordering a more expensive print.


Oooh yeah! Nylon 12 is much better.

The other question that may need to be asked from a few here. Does anyone have an idea of how hot this part gets in regular use? Maybe someone who is taking a drive soon can drive for an hour and get out quick and point their IR gun at it and the sheet metal in front of it and see what you get.

Its been eons since i have actually held one of these parts and I cannot remember what it was made of.

My 411s and 412s do not use this part and have no part # listed. They had a thin, plain round rubber ring that went between sheet metal and the alternator face. I believe it came with the alternator. When I replaced it I just cut a ring from rubber sheet and it was done.

EDIT

That also begs the question...what IS its exact function? Its not a seal for the alternator...as it gets pumped cooling air through itself from the cooling shroud inlet in the back...into the engine bay. I assume it just keeps road dust and hot air rising from the muffler out of the engine bay.

And....in that respect...Wildthings is probably onto a fully functioning answer with his fix (the anti-freeze jug). And...if that is working after years of service...it also answers the question if this area gets hot. If an antifreeze jug shield works....which is usually HDPE....it does not get very hot.

HDPE can stand close to 250F for very short periods....but about 150-160F for thin sheets is about it.

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

stwesty wrote:
Just curious, are the cheaper 3D home printers able to handle different types of plastics?

They are becoming quite affordable lately but I don't know enough about their limitations when applied to various automobile usages in order to determine if I'd just be better off using something like shapeways.


And bear in mind...I am just on teh fringes of 3D printing. Its not what I do but a great many of my customers use it...so I pick up a few things....and being a material nerd....I'm always looking at plastics and a lot of details of 3D printing are mixed in.

But....the filament machines have advanced fast enough that "cheaper" is not really an indicator of capability anymore...so yes...you can get some damn good home machines.

The 3-4 main parts of whether one is "capable" or not......accuracy of material placement.....heating control of the filament melt barrel...heated bed and control of that....and software.....all boil down to whether a machine can work with one filament type or another.

Different plastics require more or less critical control of temperature while heating filament and keeping the part you are making on the work table at an accurate enough temperature so that it does not just melt and flow...but stays hot enough to correctly bond to the next layer being applied....without voids and a separation line.

So with control capabilities being upgraded on affordable home machines...the market is opening up for more exotic plastic alloys that you can do more things with.

For example....3-4 years ago...the vast majority of home 3D printers...could only really work with plastics like PLA (polylactone) and ABS...sharp details, but low strength and brittle....and some of the polyethylenes. Most people were getting their crude nylons and some polypropylene from using weed trimmer line as filament. Many still do.

But now that there is a market for many thousands of home printing enthusiasts with a good level of control....hungry for better plastics....you are seeing exotic nylons,engineering plastics like PEEK, glass and carbon fiber alloys etc.

So yes.....to your question. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

Ray - it limits how how much air can flow out around the alternator - sealing the engine bay. There is even that small plate that covers the adjustment screw.

I'd guess it is hottest when the engine is turned off after a long heat soak cycle. In a bus on a hot day like after a climb and stop to get gas etc. - maybe 250 F - 290 F. Just a guess
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Black plastic alternator ring Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Ray - it limits how how much air can flow out around the alternator - sealing the engine bay. There is even that small plate that covers the adjustment screw.

I'd guess it is hottest when the engine is turned off after a long heat soak cycle. In a bus on a hot day like after a climb and stop to get gas etc. - maybe 250 F - 290 F. Just a guess


Thanks. Kind of what I thought originally. That function....limiting air outflow.....would probably be more of a "bus critical" thing as compared to a 412. There is virtually no airflow in or out of our engine bays as they are fotally sealed.

From memory....the 412 version of this ring is just a fairly plain ring maybe 3/4" wide. No lug to go around the clamping bolt. And yea...we have the plastix clamp bolt plug too.

Ray
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