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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6620 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Those metal cast ones are so much better. The look is better too in my opinion. I suppose plastic became cheap in 71 when they switched over to the plastic housing. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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if you rebuild the switch, consider using dielectric electric contact grease upon reassembly. It will reduce wear, make parts move easy, which can reduce breakage.
Good Luck, My Key Switch Is On For Buggin! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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This is a great pic. It shows the LARGE rotating contact in the switch.
Do you happen to have the pic of the other side of the black backing of the switch? My OE switch, like yours, had LARGE electrical contacts in the base plate. This is a big step UP when compared to the more recent replacement switch contacts. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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A-Wild Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2013 Posts: 48 Location: Edmond, OK
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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So after a hiatus, aka life, I’m back to trying to figure this situation out. I purchased what I thought was the correct ignition switch but has six wires as opposed to five. What am I missing?
Btw what is this HSR everyone says to buy? Sorry for my ignorance _________________ 1971 Clementine Orange VW Convertible
1971 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Bahia Red |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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As the ignition switch "evolved" more wires were added to provide more functionality. Some of the aftermarket replacement parts use the same later model switch for their earlier model replacements. This means you get additional functionality and more wires.
Basic wires since '68:
red (30) - INPUT constant 12v source from battery
black (15) - OUTPUT ignition switched 12v; power in ON/RUN and START positions
red/black (50) - OUTPUT starter solenoid; power in START position
Additional wires since '68:
black/yellow (X) - (added in '71) OUTPUT accessory switched 12v; power in ON/RUN only (powers headlights, wipers and blower)
grey/black (SU) - OUTPUT to door switch/buzzer; ground while key is in the ignition
grey - OUTPUT 12v while key is OFF
*You should test the grey and grey/black (brown in your case?) wires to confirm their function. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2936 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Yes, the lens on the later ghia and beetle vert mirrors can be a bit fragile -- specially the repros. I've gone thru a couple on my vert. The ghia and bug vert mirrors are similar but the bug vert have longer neck I believe -- so that they can be rotated 180 deg with the top down (68-72).
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=631983 _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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Beetlebaum Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2008 Posts: 2181 Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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This thread was incredibly useful this afternoon, as I've been trying to get the buzzer circuitry working again on my (American) 1973 Super Beetle.
I have a later-style aftermarket ignition switch, and originally it was designed so that the key in the ignition would cause the S terminal to put out 12v. I did what Joel mentioned early in this thread and disassembled the switch, moving the plastic part from "outside" the buzzer circle contact to the inside, which left the buzzer circle contact exposed outside of the ignition switch. Now the system makes a ground like the original did.
This picture is from before I switched the plastic part and the buzzer ring.
Now the tab grounds on the outside! _________________ 1973 Super Beetle
2003 New Beetle
Post your Super here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=331999
Beetle Bums VW Club Member |
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A-Wild Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2013 Posts: 48 Location: Edmond, OK
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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ashman40 wrote: |
A-Wild wrote: |
Yeah it's a 71 Vert. ... Not having much luck finding that piece on line. Any ideas? |
You need the entire ignition switch (electrical) along with the pigtail of wires.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111905865F
An option that I was considering before I got rid of my Beetle.... using a '72 ignition switch:
And adding push on female spades to the ends of the existing wires. This save the trouble of running wires and makes use of a less expensive ignition switch ($13 vs. $35). You'll want to individually heat shrink tube the ends of the non-insulated crimp on terminals (you won't have the space to use the cheap insulated terminals). If you don't have access to these crimp on terminals then just go with the correct '71 ignition switch.
My suggestion is to add a HSR when installing an aftermarket ignition switch. This will extend the life of your new ignition switch. |
I obtained a 72 ignition switch and I think I’m going to convert. Do you know what wire goes to each spade? Also do you have recommendation on how to insulate I.e. type/kind of shrink wrap _________________ 1971 Clementine Orange VW Convertible
1971 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Bahia Red |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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A-Wild wrote: |
I obtained a 72 ignition switch and I think I’m going to convert. Do you know what wire goes to each spade? Also do you have recommendation on how to insulate I.e. type/kind of shrink wrap |
I would hope the individual terminals are numbered on your ‘72 switch and the wire colors from your old switch were stock?
#30 (red wire) - constant 12v+ INPUT from battery
#15 (black wire) - ignition switched 12v OUTPUT to ignition coil and other devices (fuses #11 & #12)
#X (black/yellow) - accessory switched 12v OUTPUT to headlights/wipers/blower (fuse#10)
#5 (red/black wire) - OUTPUT to starter solenoid
#S (grey or grey/black?) - ignition key ground OUTPUT
#? (Grey or grey/black?) - ignition key 12v+ OUTPUT
If there are no numbers on your switch you can go by the numbers on this pic of the jack that plugs onto the switch:
_________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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A-Wild Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2013 Posts: 48 Location: Edmond, OK
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Yes they are marked. You mention a plug and that I don’t have. I had planned to attach the female spades directly. Do I need to find this plug? Sorry for the stupid question _________________ 1971 Clementine Orange VW Convertible
1971 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Bahia Red |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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The pic of the plug above was just so you could work out the circuit# based on the location around the ignition switch. If your switch has the circuit#s then you can ignore the pic and the plug. That odd shaped plug is what fits onto the '72 ignition switch terminals.
I don't know if you can find the plug NEW. You might need to look at recycled parts or find a '72 Beetle in the recycle yard.
As you mentioned (and I suggested earlier in this thread) using non-insulated terminals wrapped in heat shrink should work. Here is a pic to illustrate the end product (this is a headlight switch instead of the ignition switch, but you get the idea).
You could completely cover the conductive part of the terminal. Make the heat shrink lengths a bit long and trim once they are shrunk.
The above example is not bad either. It allows a bit of exposed terminal so you can probe with a test lamp or multi meter. There isn't enough exposed that it will become an issue.
Your biggest challenge will be the smaller 1/8" wide terminals and finding the correct sized crimp on terminals. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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A-Wild Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2013 Posts: 48 Location: Edmond, OK
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Thanks Ash that is a huge help! _________________ 1971 Clementine Orange VW Convertible
1971 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Bahia Red |
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dvancleve Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2013 Posts: 129 Location: Chandler, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Blue69Baja wrote: |
Great write up!!!
Yes a start relay and a Ignition relay will preserve that ignition switch assy.
Replacement switches that I have seen are not as reliable as OE.
Thanks for taking the time to show the assy.
Jim |
I may take a stab at rebuilding the (I think) original from my ’68, bit I am definitely adding an HSR. What is an ignition relay? I did some searching here an didn’t find any other references.
Thanks, Doug _________________ '62 ragtop bug w/ '71 1600 dual port |
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TK-CS Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: D - Deutschland
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Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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ashman40 wrote: |
That odd shaped plug is what fits onto the '72 ignition switch terminals.
I don't know if you can find the plug NEW. You might need to look at recycled parts or find a '72 Beetle in the recycle yard.
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You may find this plug on nearly any VW from Mj. 1972 thru 1988 (Passat/Quantum), 1989 (Rabbit/Golf/Jetta/Scirocco), or Bus T3 (all). Also on some old Audi and Porsche 924.
My input to the confusion about the S/SU terminal (ground or 12V) from European sight:
Factory installed is commonly a starter switch that has only the terminals that are required in the particular car:
EU Bug: w/o P, w/o S/SU
EU Type3: w/ P, w/o S/SU
US Bug: w/o P, w/ S/SU
US Type3: w/o P, w/ S/SU
Spare part switches from VW were equipped with all terminals to fit cars for any market.
On spare parts until Mj. 1974 the S/SU terminal makes connection to ground, on parts from Mj. 1975 the S/SU terminal makes connection to +12V.
So I think for Mj. 1975 on the US-Cars the wiring for the buzzer changed.
In European cars the S/SU terminal came to use not earlier as Mj. 1990, as the new radio generation than startet to make use of it to switch on/off with the ignition key in the ignition lock. If switched on without key the radio would switch off automatically after one hour. |
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DesignBuild Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2016 Posts: 314 Location: TEXAS
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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I believe the plug you are looking for was used on the 72 through 74 1/2 Super Beetles and possibly on Standards too. If there was a part number for the plug only it might be used in newer vehicles too. With all the Beetles and other cars that used this plug connection and that are rotting away there should be a few hundred or thousand that could be salvaged. I think I found this on TheSamba. The original author's name is on the picture.
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DesignBuild Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2016 Posts: 314 Location: TEXAS
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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TK-CS: your description of the EU Bug switch terminals has me stumped. What is w/o 'P'? What is the reference to P? I have a 1972 EU Super Beetle and I just had starting problems this past Sunday. When I turned the key I got no response from the starter though all the lights that normally light up when the key is turned to the ON position worked. It took some jiggling of the key and lock cylinder before the engine started. The actual engine starting is never a problem. Even after sitting for a week or more it starts with no cranking. I have an AB 1300 engine. I will be looking at the mechanical key and the ignition switch. I hope I can save it with the Hard Starting kit and with the installation of an ignition relay. The Hard Starting relay and the ignition relay will take the high current off the switch contacts and put the current on the relays.
Would like to do the same thing for the other high current switches like the headlight switch. I am surprised the Beetles didn't have a horn relay. I can't think of any American car back into the 1930s that didn't use a horn relay. Not using a relay may contribute to the anemic sounding horn. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: |
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dvancleve wrote: |
What is an ignition relay? I did some searching here an didn’t find any other references. |
The suggestion of an "ignition relay" uses the same principle as a Hard Start Relay (HSR). The Bosch-style SPDT relay only requires 6v to activate so will function even if the ignition switch has been damaged after years of use. As long as you can consistently get at least 6v out of the ignition switch every time the relay will reliably work. But if the switch is so bad that it inconsistently provides voltage, the switch is bad and needs to be replaced/rebuilt.
Secondly, the use of the relay reduces the current flow thru the internal switch contacts which prolongs the life of the ignition switch. This applies whether you have an OE switch or an aftermarket switch. That current flow is moved to the relay itself. If the relay were to fail, it is a simple/cheap R&R with a new one and you are working once more. New SPDT relays can be found at ANY FLAPS. No need to disassemble the steering column to replace the ignition switch. But this would be a rare need as Bosch-style relays are known for their reliability and years of service.
Instead of being placed in the #50 circuit path like the HSR, the ignition relay would be placed in the #15 (black wire) circuit immediately between the ignition switch and the fuse box. Being close to the fuse box works best because the relay will be tapping the #30 circuit for power.
*It is important that the relay ONLY be placed in the wire between the ignition switch and the fuse box. Installing an ignition switched relay somewhere AFTER the fuse box (like the engine compartment) could result in a problem with the engine running ON even AFTER you have turned the ignition switch OFF.
If you have a '71-later Beetle you might also consider adding a relay to the "X" circuit (black/yellow wire from the ignition switch). This circuit powers the headlights and the wipers in later years. That's a lot of current. Again, this would be placed in the wiring between the ignition switch and the fuse box. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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DesignBuild Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2016 Posts: 314 Location: TEXAS
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Thanks Ashman40 for the further explanation of where to put the relays for the other high current wires coming from the ignition switch.
Many years ago I came across an article about improving headlights and reducing headlight glare, I was surprised to still find it on the internet though it appears to have been updated. The author is Daniel Stern. He has a website: https://www.danielsternlighting.com/home.html
There are loads of things on his website that include using relays for headlights, headlight switches, and other electrical improvements; lots od how to instructions. It is well work checking out. |
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edjose17 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2019 Posts: 24 Location: Puerto Rico
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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ashman40 wrote: |
*It is important that the relay ONLY be placed in the wire between the ignition switch and the fuse box. Installing an ignition switched relay somewhere AFTER the fuse box (like the engine compartment) could result in a problem with the engine running ON even AFTER you have turned the ignition switch OFF. |
Can you explain why this happen? I was planning to add a relay under the back seat to provide clean power to black wire going to the coil, but your comment make me think twice about doing it. |
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chookhen Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2021 Posts: 42 Location: Queensland Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Hi All,
First day today so forgive me if I am perhaps in the wrong section.
My 71 super's ignition switch decided to stay fully engaged in the switch on position resulting in continual engagement of the starter which on returning to the on position power was cut and engine stopped.
I managed to remove the barrel but switch is hard wired in.
Would a solution be to place a momentary switch between key switch and the the wire to the starter with the spade connection so key could be left in tne on position and momentary switch would activate the circuit.
I note the spade connection wire I would be breaking for the switch is not particularly large, would a high ampere switch be sufficient or should a relay be fitted, I would include a fuse in circuit.
Does all this make any sense.?
I would appreciate any criticism or ideas from members who no doubt will have more knowledge than me.
Greetings from Queensland.
i |
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