Gearbox parts condition? (now a rebuild thread)

[nilza]

Just like you Mark, the rebuild I don't believe to be out of my skill set. With so many horror stories of rough pro builds, what's the worst that can happen?

I can build or borrow the tools no problem, though being my first time in a gearbox I do prefer to lean on those more experienced than myself.
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[nilza]

I will get some photos up soon, I have the rest apart now and the everything inside looks to be in good nick. I am not finding any chipped gears, syncros or dog rings. Closer inspection will be the real tell tale.

But the real issue I found while looking for play in both the pinion and main bearings is that both are really good......HOWEVER

Both the maincase and intermediate housing ( is that way its called?)
Don't hold onto the pinion or main bearing, they just slide right out. To be honest they are quite loose.

So the intermediate housing I figure I can sleeve and add a SA style plate or replace with one of Gears masterpieces.
But the maincase I am not sure on. Can I sleeve this? Or am I asking for trouble? How hard is it to source an aluminum locker case? (AAN case with locker now)
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[gears]

A good machinist with a Bridgeport vertical mill and a block hone can resleeve your main case. I'd normally use a new carrier housing to find center (x/y), then remove the carrier and crank the main case upward (z) to boring position. A block hone provides a smooth finish for final sizing. (Since you're resleeving already, use steel for the sleeve instead of aluminum.)
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[DanHoug]

[nilza]

thanks Dan, been doing some reading. It was good to confirm most of the info from 091 boxes was interchangeable, which broadens my reference material.

I finally have had some time to finish pulling this apart. Today's subject?

1st gear and main shaft.

The mainshaft teeth have some strange wear. The little discolored area at the edge, whats that about? Otherwise there is a small flat spot at the base that looks like a line.
Anything I can do about this little pit on the bearing surface? Looks like I will be up for the whole Guards catalog at this rate

The idler again looks pretty good with small damages on the tips of the teeth, but once again pit in the bearing(?) area. I feel the idler is ok, but if I need to replace the mainshaft I would prefer to replace as a set.

Once again, really happy to get feedback, good, bad or indifferent.

Nils
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[nilza]

Added to the first post and thread renamed
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

*EDITED** I noticed this kept getting bigger so it was time for a rename, history and introduction.

My name is Nils, I live in Australia and own one of very few westys in the country (due to either trakka having the contract to convert here, or possibly because there are so few RHD westys)
I use my bus alot. It is a RHD converted 1989 Syncro westfalia multivan that my better half only refers to as Roy. I don't like to cook inside so he has a weekender/multivan interior, 3 knobs and a DJ motor.

I have had the van in it's current state for about 3 years and have fixed and traveled so much. The Gearbox always jumped out of first if you back off hard, but recently developed a whine and a tendency to jump out of 4th. So it was time for a teardown.
Gearbox builders that want to take on a syncro are very slim on the ground here and any kind of guarantee is out of the question. My background is in aeronautical maintenance, so thought I would give it a shot.

Using the vast experience group on the samba I would really appreciate feed back and guidance with the parts within, as the Bentley doesn't exactly provide negligible damage limits for these parts.

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still floating around the web somewhere

[nilza]

2nd and Main today as I continue to inspect and feel this gearbox although I didn't think was to bad (nor is anything really busted) is just plain worn out.

The picky side of me says just replace it all!

But my wallet says "slow down there big fella, there are spot fires starting in here"

The 2nd idler has some small tip damages again, with the faces looking AOK, but there is alittle damage where it runs against the synchro

The mainshaft has no notable damage on the teeth, but once again I have these little flat spots/lines at the base. Also I am curious the line with the yellow arrow, casting? or crack? these are only present in 2 of the valleys.
The driveside (correct me if I am wrong here) has a very obvious wear pattern.

I guess all this doesn't matter if I can't find a way to correct the pits at the needle bearing end found in previous posts.

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[gears]

High mileage & worn out. The wear on engagement teeth flanks (as indicated) is likely the reason this transaxle is popping out of 1st & 4th gears. All the other wear is typical in a high mileage transaxle.

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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[nilza]

See... I didn't even see that.

Paul this is what I am seeing too, I have yet to find a piece that is not worn out.

I have found both 3rd and 4th rock on the pinion shaft I am yet to work out the best way to load video onto the Samba, surely in the next few days.

Well the case is all dsassembled and cleaned up. Got out the ole' bore mic and this is what I have come up with - 82.00mm top to bottom, while 82.04 side to side (typo on the photo, forgot the gauge reads in .02 increments) Which is not as bad as I thought, as the bearing is 82.00. Sorry I don't have any imperial measuring tools

So seeing as I have essentially a slip fit, is there a Loktite that I can put it in with? or should I still be running with the sleeve plan? surely the sleeve will make for a tougher box in the long term?

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[nilza]

Link


AH ha! worked it out!

So 4th gear is toast too huh?
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[gears]

Both the main case and carrier housing need to be sleeved to restore an approximate .02-.03mm interference fit. Normally a new carrier housing is stacked onto the main case to find true center, before cranking the table up. It might be worth your while to purchase a new SA aluminum carrier housing (especially since it will be months until I have a billet one again) .. or perhaps your machinist can borrow one for centering purposes.

These Syncro transaxles are scary expensive to rebuild when they get to the true end of their service life. I feel for you being in OZ, where they're a particularly rare vehicle.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[nilza]

Thanks Paul,

I do know of an old race trans builder a few hours from me. I may be able to borrow a good gear carrier housing from a 091?

Are the measurements the same?

and I have found a NOS mag locker case, but at $1600AUD I think I will go with the resleeve.

And on that subject It was suggested if I am not going huge HP that maybe I should bore the case round again and have an extra few thou. plated/sprayed onto the outside surface of the pinion bearing? Does this sound like a viable option?

Sounds there may be less room for error?
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[nilza]

See as everybody likes pictures, guess I carry on with what is becoming quite the inspection record. I feel I am getting a much better understanding of how everything interacts with each other inside though this process, very satisfying actually.

I will try not to bore everyone with too much detail. 3rd and 4th continue to show signs of old age, the gear teeth are in ok condition with a small tip mark here and there.

3rd gear I am on the fence whether I would call it reusable. 2 details, the dog teeth (is that what they are called?) are worn, I am still not sure how much is acceptable? and secondly the fit onto the pinion shaft is not a press fit, light oil and persistence is all that is needed. Might replace it anyway and turn it into a tool for the pinion bearing.

4th has some weird bearing wear in the idler and the fixed gear isn't even close to fitting on the pinion shaft anymore, you can see the wear the circlip has left.

Which leads me to the 3rd/4th synchro assembly.
Are the brass parts just plain and simple, replace and call it a day? I should I inspect them?

The outside ring is obviously worn

Interesting to find how burnt the oil is on the 4th gear side, which leads me to - is that the wrong ring on the 4th gear side? the bentley states, 4th gear 3 x 8 teeth, or am I off the mark there?

lastly the hub itself looks great and fits to the shaft as it should (it took 3tons of pressure and a light heat to remove), no cracks or sharp edges with just slight polishing at the engagement area.

Had to have a win eventually

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[gears]

The 3rd/4th hub should always be replaced, as it seems they all eventually fail. It appears this trans was rebuilt with the upgraded hub at one point, but it should still be replaced with a new one.

Yes, the synchro rings have been reversed on 3rd & 4th. It's wise to replace them all. Replacement for both 3rd & 4th is now the same moly-coated synchro.

All the dog teeth flanks are worn to the point that the gears should be replaced, as are the operating (shift) sleeves (what you have labeled as "Synchro Ring). However, if you feel lucky, you could replace the sleeves only and take your chances with gear pop-out. (If I were doing bush repairs in Kenya, I'd take this route.)

Factory fit of 3rd & 4th fixed gears was a tap-on fit, although most aftermarket use a press fit for longevity. The waterboxer transaxles did away with the earlier 091 & 002 tension spring between 3rd & 4th fixed gears, which leads to more wear on the splines of Syncro mainshafts. With some clearancing, one can retro fit the earlier spring.

Yes, a new bearing race could be hard chromed and the bore trued up .. not the way I'd do it, but some have done it this way with success.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[nilza]

Funny you should say that Paul, the previous owner said the gearbox had been rebuilt in Namibia before importing it over.

I have noticed I have labeled a few things wrongly, I will do my best to stick with the naming conventions in the Bentley to save confusion down the track.

The suggestion was not to use the earlier housing in the rebuild, but just to borrow one to measure/jig off of while sorting out the pinion bore. leaving my options open for use of the CNC alternative later in the build.

It was suggested by a member to mag partical and liquid penetrant inspect the hub for cracks for piece of mind. I can have this done at work for no cost
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[nilza]

Low / Reverse gear and 1st / 2nd synchro inspection was a lot more positive that the rest have been.

1st / 2nd Hub looks really good again save for a little bit of galling on the bearing face. The sleeve looks better with only minor wear, most of these patches are barely perceivable when you run a ball point over them. There do however seem to be chips a the outer edges, will have to come back to that.

The Low / Rev synchroniser is in great condition overall, but would like to replace those springs for piece of mind.
and once again the hub looks really good and fits well, with 2 little scars on the face. Can I just polish of the high edges?

Low and reverse idler gears also look really good overall (guess they get used a whole lot less)
2 Questions though
- Reverse only runs on 2/3 of the gear?
- and the low gear idler uses 2 bearings instead of one like reverse, would the surface area not be greater with one? or are the metal cages the key here to cope with the heat better?

Thanks for looking. For those who have PMéd me, you are welcome to put your Questions on the thread. I am learning too, that's why this thing has gotten quite a lot more detailed than I originally intended.
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[DanHoug]

this is all so great... i'm learning lots. thank you!!!
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[gears]

As great as your photos are, one cannot always judge from a photo whether or not a part is worthy of reinstalling. I'd say the 1st/2nd operating sleeve is too worn to reuse. A new hub comes with it for only a few dollars more.

The metal caged bearings won't slide over the shaft splines like the plastic split bearing will.

Normal wear on R gear.

Your 3rd/4th hub is probably fine, but most shops would be conservative and replace it .. as they would with other parts that a home builder might take a chance on and reinstall.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[nilza]

That's fine Paul, we are on the internet after all.
I don't expect miracles, Just happy to be able to use a wider knowledge base instead of truly going it alone.

I'm more than happy with a second opinion and someone to pull me up when I am clearly wrong.

If I make a mistake or something goes wrong, that is on me and I will have learnt a lesson from it.

As the true cost of all the parts comes to light I will start making hard decisions on what I can and afford to replace outright, what I can afford to upgrade and probably ask a few dumb questions as to which is more important. The next few weeks will be interesting

[MarkWard]

I'd say you have 2 choices. You can rebuild it replacing all the worn parts and if done correctly should give you many miles of trouble free use. Or, as you can see, the trans is not full of spiders and snakes. You will have the tools and the experience. You can assemble it with the parts you can afford, and start using it again knowing at some point you will be going back into it.

I'm doing the second option. I'm suspect of the mainshaft bearing/4th idler area anyhow. Without adding an oiling system, I would expect to have to replace the mainshaft bearing at some interval anyhow.

I have added the oiling plates and opted for a new gear carrier housing with the bosses for adding the 4 bolt main bearing retainer. I did not find repair parts for the low/reverse syncro hub. I bought a new complete one from Weddle.

What you are identifying as burnt oil on the syncro ring face is worn sintered coating. I replaced all the syncro rings, main shaft bearings, pinion bearings, 3/4 hub, and the 6 sheetmetal shift rod detents.
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