MV Water pipe and Oil Pump Interference/Water Pump Nipple Spins

[jackfolstam]

So my friend got an MV remanned engine from GEX. We found a few differences between his original engine and the new one.

1) The oil pump cover was different. Instead of concave, it has a spacer and a flat cover. The upper two studs had an angle grinder taken to them down to the nut. Even so, the water pipe that connects the two cylinder heads hits the nut on the stud on the upper right and the flange does not sit flat on the water pump. So, we mashed and bent the pipe to try and clear the nut, but he got impatient and said to just bolt it on, with a piece of sheet metal between the two. Now that we put water in it though, the flange leaks. Can we use the lower profile plate off of the old engine and grind the studs down more? Or mash the pipe up more, or find a seal that takes up the gap. The leak is about a drop every three seconds, and we used the green fiber gasket.

2) The nipple on the water pump that goes to the oil cooler spins on the new pump, and does not on the old water pump. Will this leak? I think I see a drop of water sitting at the base but nothing running out, although we haven't pressurized the system yet.

[jlrftype7]

Pictures? Might help...
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[Steve Arndt]

My RJE engine has a bigger oil pump. I had to flatten the cross over pipe some for clearance.
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Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project

[jackfolstam]

#2 solved:

Here's the crossover pipe, leaking on the driver's side:

Here's the top left oil pump cover nut, with 1mm clearance to the pipe:

Here's the top right oil pump cover nut that is interfering with the pipe:

We've already mashed the pipe down pretty flat but it needs some more.

Is there another solution or should I just keep flattening? It also seems impossible to remove this pipe without removing either the engine mounts, the crank pulley, or the water pump. Is this true?

The water pump lower left nut seems impossible to remove without first removing the oil filter and cooler and/or exhaust. Is this also true? The clearance between the 13mm nut and the water pump body do not allow for a socket or the closed end of a box wrench to get on there, and at the current clocking of the nut, the open end of a wrench just slips.

[mikemtnbike]

Yes to removal of the items in your way in order to access the pipe.

I know that when installing the HD oil pumps, many directions state you need to peen the pipe to create a dimple for clearance.

I'm really puzzled by your description of the cover with a spacer, but I know it's impossible to take a good picture of that area.

EDIT: It certainly can't hurt to try removing whatever cover GEX used and putting a new, OEM-style cover on. I would not re-use the old cover, I do not know if it would even be possible to get it sealed back up within the correct clearances/tolerances. You have to either pull the engine or remove the exhaust, engine carrier bar, and engine carrier assembly to access the oil pump- obviously have to support the engine somehow while doing this, I put a 4x6 across my engine bay and used a strap recently, was actually very effective- did have a floor jack under the motor for insurance, if that makes sense. Look under FAQ's, oil pump for more information.

Good luck!
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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[jackfolstam]

I ground down a socket to fit the left lower WP nut and it worked. To take out the crossover pipe without removing anything else I had to flatten the end of it as well, hopefully a hose and clamp will be ok. It now clears the pulley and oil pump by 1mm each I think, can barely see light between each gap.

Next question: the owner has a digital water temp gauge and sensor, what do ya'll think is a good place for that? Drilling and tap somewhere in the thermostat housing sounds like the most logical spot, or putting a fitting in the middle of a coolant hose on the housing. But, are there any other spots that make sense, like another useful spot to monitor?

[jackfolstam]

I'm not sure about the nipple. I 1 layer of Teflon tape on it and put it back in but thinking about it, it doesn't bottom out on anything, and it's not a tapered/pipe thread. So the only seal is with the thread and tape. And, the only reason it stops threading in is that there are no more threads left on the nipple. I'm thinking about putting 3-4 layers of tape on, and then not threading it all of the way on. Also, I could twist the oil cooler hose counter clockwise, hold it there and clamp it, such that it tightens the nipple when I let go.

[djkeev]

1.9 or 2.1 engine???

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[jackfolstam]

It's a 2.1L from an 86 Syncro, sorry forgot to post that.
I'm new to Vanagons, been working on Mk1 watercooled. Is there both a 1.9L and 2.1L MV or is MV ambiguous?

[djkeev]

I read MV as MultiVan, a designation by VW for the Vanagon.

Yes, MV is indeed also a designation for the 2.1 engine but few know that and it is infrequently used.

I ask because the 1.9 and the 2.1 have radically different cooling systems.

There are 2.1 engines running the 1.9 cooling systems and fuel system, just as there are 1.9 units masquerading as 2.1 units sporting the 2.1 cooling and fuel systems.

I ask because of your where to add a temperature sender question.

Running a 2.1 system, You might seek out the Syncro style aluminum thermostat housing to replace the Plastic 2 wheel drive housing.
The Aluminum housing could be drilled and tapped for your needs quite easily.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[jackfolstam]

The bottom of the tstat housing is aluminum on this setup, and the top with the bleeder is plastic. Are there metal top halves with bleeders?

[T3 Pilot]

https://www.gowesty.com/product/made-in-usa/23591/billet-upper-cover-for-thermostat-housing-?v=
_________________
1988 Vanagon

The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel......

[jackfolstam]

Ok so the pipe clears forward and back now, but it still leaks at the crossover pipe and water pump when we put water in. So, now I think the pipe is too tall, and hitting the bottom of the crankcase under the crank pulley. So as a quick fix we siliconed the gasket front and back and we'll see if that holds, and then under pressure. I would like it if it did not work such that we can make the pipe clear the crankcase.

[crazyvwvanman]

That cross pipe is pretty important so hopefully you didn't flatten it so much that the flow through it is reduced.

Maybe too late now but if a plain steel pump cover would have solved or improved the pipe fit that may have been a better option.

Mark

[jackfolstam]

Here is the old pump (sorry I didn't clean it)

And the new pump.

So you can see the new oil pump is thicker? That's what I was referring to as the spacer.

[jackfolstam]

So after timing, we turned the vanagon around to be parked uphill rather than downhill to bleed the cooling system. Upon shutdown a bunch of oil spilled on the ground... Looks like we got sent a motor with a non-syncro crank seal and the crank pulley cut into it, it's all cut to bits. We got the syncro seal in the mail today as well as a pulley seal. I went to Homedepot and got a 2" PVC pipe cap that fits inside the outer lip of the seal, and on top of the middle lip of the seal. That little lip seems sturdy enough to push on to get the seal in. We also ordered a new crossover pipe from Go Westy as well. The original one is so flat that when we tighten the hose clamp it flattens it more, causing more leaks. This time if it doesn't fit we'll dimple it instead of flattening.

[mikemtnbike]

If you’re having to do all that, might as well buy an oem pump cover and put it on. Plus I’d sure be wondering why a different style was used and want to see what’s under it. Sorry for your woes
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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[jackfolstam]

[jackfolstam]

So we got a gowesty crossover pipe and a victor reinz 2wd crank seal (still not sure if I should call it the front or rear, rear I think) and all is well now. I pulled the syncro pulley seal flange off and no more eating seals, and the new seal went in with just pushing on it with my thumbs.

The crossover pipe did require a small dimple, but the bigger concern is that it does not line up with the pipe on the other cylinder head very well. It is misaligned by almost 1cm and we are trusting that the hose section will be ok.