Replacing oil cooler seals

[Tcash]

Speaking of seal composition.
thanks to mayor ratwell
"Q Oil cooler seals 021 117 151A 2 $0.79 Red silicone"

[Amskeptic]

[Tcash]

[Wildthings]

[wbnguyen]

WOW!! Loads of GREAT info! So, I have made a full trip to and from Oregon to San Diego (2k miles) and NO LEAKS! I used the spacer combo as mentioned in my earlier posts. So my oil cooler started leaking upon my arrival into Oregon. The weather went from 95 degrees to a chilling 24 degrees. Assuming the "over tightened" oil cooler seals hardened causing it to piss oil. I have the motor out again dealing with a pilot bearing issue, maybe I can get some pics. Just as a reminder the seals I used were:

[Wildthings]

I would buy and install the best seals you can while you have the chance.

[wbnguyen]

[raygreenwood]

I guess one of my main reasons for a little over the top interest.....is partly due to the same type of questions raised by the last few posts.

Its not that I am overly questioning the design of the seals......overall they have worked quite well over the eons and zillions made.
But.......just like every other rubber, sealing or elastomer product.....how is the quality and uniformity of these seals holding up these days.....from manufacturer to manufacturer. Thats my question to those looking at this thread. I dont have data on it except for anecdotal experience over the years.

Just with what I have learned about silicone over the past five years.....makes me know for a fact that there MUST be large differences in formulations and capabilities like oil resistance, compression/durometer, porosity etc.

For example....one thing I noticed over the years...even back when I was in high school....was differences in not just color but surface texture and hardness of seals made by various manufacturers. Not that I had any data to say one was better than another.....but some just looked like crap so I avoided them.

For example....and for the life of me I cant remember the exact brand name....but the very common brand with red logo that listed Juntas all over it (yes I know Juntas means seal in Spanish....but it was used as part of the brand name).....had the crappier looking, sharp edged, pinkish seals that looked more like a natural rubber derivitive.

Victor Reinz always seemed to be the smoothest molding....but are noticably harder than the Juntas seals or Elring....which always seemed to be the most consistent.

Just like the crank seals....as we have found.....differences in material hardness snd manufacturing tolerances......have made it where we have definite preferences in what is better (examples being Sabo versus Elring versus Reinz etc.).......my question is will we sooner or later start seeing significant quality issues in these seals as well.

What I am seeing in molded rubber product quality (and not just in the automotive industry)......is the formulations are changing. With normal synthetic rubber products like boots etc......most of those normally HAVE to be injection molded. The equipment cost alone.....means that some level of expertise and precision has to be involved (rubber formulations aside).
With silicones.....most are or have been injection molded....but they do not have to be. They can be pressure molded or cast or vacuum cast. This is also aided by the ever increasing range of casting silicones in the industrial world. Silicone molded products CAN even be made in a back room or a garage....by relatively low skilled people.....like me.

And.....each formulation....and each molding method.....has variations and differing finished product characteristics. I just wonder......if some of the most important seals in our cars.....will sooner or later go the same declining quality route as other seals we have seen.

I'm not saying I have seen this happening at all. But....unless you know what to look for.....how will you know when it starts to happen? Ray

[Tcash]

[/img]

[timvw7476]

The only issue I get is slight hardening of the material after several years,
if your seals are distorting, you're over-torquing. My type 4 seals come out
the way they went in, looking like new, but not "feeling" like new.
I do "glue" them in place with Bel-Ray Salt-Water proof wheel bearing
grease, so they don't shift/drop during assembly.
Maybe that stuff (Bel-Ray) is magic?

[mikedjames]

I got out my 1973 issue VW engine service manual and it shows three different cooler layouts

T1 upright 1200, 1300, 1500 T2 1600

All have no spacer washers on the oil cooler fixing studs either original upright cooler or doghouse cooler with adaptor. No spacers under the adaptor either.

T3 1500,1600 with horizontal oil cooler mounted on top of engine block

Spacer washers under oil cooler on fixing bolts

T4 1700 with horizontal oil cooler mounted on the side of engine block.
No spacer washers under the oil cooler

And I discovered where somebody had transposed two pages in 1973 when they inserted an update supplement .. because the diagram showed items which had either two different descriptions for the T3 or no descriptions for the T4
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[blues90]

I have to add this.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1349520.jpg

This I a photo I posted of the seals off my 73 T3 1600 .

The one on the left came off that engine and I replaced it in 85 when I got this car . I have no idea what brand it was all I knew was the case and cooler were both 10mm and as far as I could tell they were never off before I got it.

This is what it looked like in 97 when I rebuild a 72 case and used the same oil cooler . That seal was not leaking but the rest of the areas were.

From what I can tell from the marks left on that case from the cooler bosses I didn't used the washers , they are larger in OD than the clean marks on that case. I have three of those spacer washers and have forgotten if they came on the 73 when I got it or were on the 72 case. Both cases are late model dual relief 10mm cases and coolers. I know I didn't buy them.

The seal is at about 50% compressed. It is not split or and ID is 11mm at the case side which it the longer small OD end and it's 10 mm at the cooler side. It basically became 11mm to 10mm. I noted no restriction.

I used the same cooler because I knew it was good and clean and didn't leak. Off the top of my head I assume I didn't use the spacers on the 72 case either but 97 is long ago I don't recall. From what I'm reading in these posts is if I have used the 3 spacers it sound possible the seal may not leak . I need to check the thickness of them to know.

The issues is the Bentley and Haynes are all I have and they don't mention the 8mm to 10mm cooler seals all I recall is the spacers and install them if they were there. I had no internet in 97 and certainly not in 85 .

In the T-3 forums there is a writing by Russ Wolf stating only use the spaces with the thick 8mm seals , none with the 10mm and then the 8 to 10 adapter seal which I was never concerned about.


I can see what appears to be cooler seal leaks since I have a leak on the left side that seems to wet the large super cool tin against and under the cylinders. It's not pouring out just oily enough to cause concern.

[patkennedy]

I have a 912E that is leaking oil near the cooler. No oil is coming from the oil pressure switch.
I have seen a few blogs that indicate the seals can be removed and replaced without removing the engine or a lot of other components.
The information I read basically said to remove the oil filter, filter housing and then loosen and remove the nuts that hold the cooler in place.
The cooler can then be slid rearwards to access the old seals. Has anyone tried this or think it will work?
Looks like the upper nut on the filter housing is somewhat difficult to get to.
Maybe a special wrench is necessary. Please respond. Thanks, Pat

[old DKP driver]

It is possible to do the cooler in the car and there is actually more room than
there is on a late bus.
most of the 76 912e engines in california came with A/C & air pump.

You may want to go to a Porsche tech forum and post this too.
there is a porsche forum here but, few posts or, www.pelicanparts.com
has a tech section

probably been 35 years since i even had a deck lid open on a 912e

Chris
_________________
V.W.owner since 1967

[patkennedy]

Thanks Chris,
I took your advice and posted the same message on the Pelican Parts Porsche 912 forum. The forums are really amazing. The knowledge that's out there is very useful for the weekend mechanics.
Pat

[cdennisg]

[airschooled]

[cdennisg]

[cdennisg]

I won't fill this thread with photos, and I apologize for their quality. Not my good camera with me today.

One shot of the unit (without fan shroud, carb, alternator, etc) and one shot of the white stepped cooler seals that had been installed who-knows-when by who-knows? Other photos in my gallery. I can provide better photos if requested.

_________________
nothing

[scubasteve321]

Thanks all for your input and info, definitely clarified some questions I was going to post, and is helping me on my way to getting my engine together

I am in a bit of a stressful life position at the moment so having trouble digesting all the info

One thing that I don't think I came across is it appears my oil passages are different sized, one is 8mm one is 10mm

This is a dual relief case for a bus

That being said, could I not just use the 10mm for both
shown on the left of the image taken of them on the book?

_________________
1971 Campmobile Tin-Top
1971 Campmobile Pop-Top
1974 VW Bus