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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1049 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:37 pm Post subject: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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The body on my Ghia is in relatively good condition. The car has a selection of dents ranging from a hit at the R/R corner to age related dents along the sides. I plan to to do as much metal reshaping as possible before applying any filler material. I have no experience with metal shaping, lead, or filler so it is all new to me. I have contemplated lead just because of the cool factor and the minimal structural qualities of it. I realize that filler is the go-to product these days and that there is no shame associated if it is used properly and sparingly AFTER the metal has been shaped.
So, is lead worth the learning curve and expense on a car that is going to be a resto-mod and very far from stock? Will the cool factor and bragging rights be worth using lead instead of filler?
Opinions, advice, and recommendations welcome; flames discouraged
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Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worht the extra effort? |
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I my opinion any restoration job that requires filler at all should be only for marks that can not be hammered and dollied out like parts of a seam. Filler to correct the contour is for something that you're going to resell or don't care if it rots out later.
Whether it's worth it or not depends on how much you respect the car and a part of history. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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theastronaut Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 1631 Location: Anderson, SC
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worht the extra effort? |
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I've done both. Rust can/probably will form under lead from the acid used to tin the steel so lead will stick, especially if theres an overlapped seam. I've removed old factory applied lead that had rust under it. It's best to stick with epoxy primer to seal the metal, then filler over the epoxy. _________________ Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worht the extra effort? |
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theKbStockpiler wrote: |
I my opinion any restoration job that requires filler at all should be only for marks that can not be hammered and dollied out like parts of a seam. Filler to correct the contour is for something that you're going to resell or don't care if it rots out later. |
File finishing panel beating without requiring any filler requires a great deal of skill and a great deal of time and even then it would be difficult to use no filler on a resto that requires significant repairs. Danny Gabbard can do it and good on you if you can do this as well but you would be in the vast minority on here.
My aim is to panel beat sufficiently enough to minimise the use of filler, then use lead where the factory used it and where thicker filler is required and we plastic filler where minor filler is used (idealky less than 1/8"). _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worht the extra effort? |
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The difference lies in whether it is looked at as a restoration job or not. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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typ914 Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2012 Posts: 231 Location: Atlanta, Ga
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worht the extra effort? |
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A wise man once told me, the only reason the factories used lead back then was because bondo wasn't available yet. |
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Onceler Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010 Posts: 1647 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Both can look like shit. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Some big differences:
Polyester...which is what all standard body filler is....can be porous...and even if its not...all polyester hardens and gets more brittle with age and it all absorbs moisture even if its at a slow rate.
"Lead"....does not absorb moisture. Lead can surface corrode but only if exposed to air. Keeping the base metal free of rust is all about surface stripping and prep...and how you apply the lead.
Also...in this day and age you do not use "LEAD"...you can buy lead free solder that works very well.
Also....the flux is not acidic. The flux for body solder is micro powdered tin in zinc chloride. Zinc chloride is acidic when mixed with water....but you are torching this onto a tin oxide coating. If you do this properly there will be no water and no acid.
The adhesion with lead is much higher than polyester...but not all panels can be soldered even though its fairly low temperature.
I have slowly been practicing with some lead free solder.
As KBstockpiler noted...you should be hammering or pulling dents out to almost good before filling with anything. Ray |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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I was thinking that anyone that used lead on a auto body was also good at shaping with a hammer and dolly so cars with lead use it sparingly anyways. So if you can't get the contour very close then plastic filler is better. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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theKbStockpiler wrote: |
I was thinking that anyone that used lead on a auto body was also good at shaping with a hammer and dolly so cars with lead use it sparingly anyways. So if you can't get the contour very close then plastic filler is better. |
Yes.....the biggest problem with lead....and the learning curve that comes with it.....from my very amateur experience just practicing on a dented fender .....is that it SHOULD not be used for filling "dents".
It should be used for fulling the very shallow depressions and marks left from body hammering and dolly work. For final smoothing if you will.
The problem is that the panel you are working with needs to havd the area you are workimg with heated to about 450°F and maintain that while you are working. You do not want it hot enough the the metal runs. You want the consistemcy of warm butter....and you basically apply it like you are spreading butter or jam on toast. You heat the surface and push the lead bar against.....to melt it onto the surface ... it just like feeding solder to a hot wire or connector in electronic soldering.
So.....if you are trying to fill a deep dent.....you have to keep reheating and keep that panel area hot....which can screw up previous solder layers.....and.....you have to then employ a range of heat soak control devices to keep the whole panel crom heating up and warping because you are working so long. Things like heat sink clay or putty....wet rags etc.
You should be able ....if the dent or depression is the r8ght size......to spread on a layer of solder that is thicker/deeper/wider than the depression......in a single pass or two at the most....and then sand file it to shape. Ray |
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theastronaut Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007 Posts: 1631 Location: Anderson, SC
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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I made these a few years ago when I was doing lead work on a '40 Packard. This is real lead, not the modern substitute. Lead has a lower melting point and a wider working range so it's easier to use than lead free solder. This was the first time I ever tried leading so I'm sure others are more proficient at it.
Link
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_________________ Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1049 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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I am teaching myself to do metal shaping and dent repair. I doubt I will get good enough during this project to get the panels "That smooth" but I intend to get as close as I can using a stud welder, hammers, dollies, and a shrinking disc.
raygreenwood wrote: |
Some big differences:
Polyester...which is what all standard body filler is....can be porous...and even if its not...all polyester hardens and gets more brittle with age and it all absorbs moisture even if its at a slow rate.
"Lead"....does not absorb moisture... |
Thanks Ray, I found your comments above (and many of your other posts) very informative and helpful. The discussion that follows Ray's comments above has also been very helpful; thank you all for contributing.
I think I will give lead/Solder a try on areas that are smooth enough and filler where I fall short of "almost there" metal work. This project is about learning and developing my skills so nothing lost in trying new things.
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Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Epoxy should be a good compromise.
why not?
works for me. |
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jason Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002 Posts: 3444 Location: Garage
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Just remember poly primer is spray filler. |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1049 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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modok wrote: |
Epoxy should be a good compromise.
why not?
works for me. |
I don't follow, please elaborate.
jason wrote: |
Just remember poly primer is spray filler. |
Are you suggesting getting as close as possible with the metal shaping then finishing with layers of high build primer? If so, i figured that was the next step after lead/body solder.
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Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Epoxy is stronger, and non-porous, and less likely to crack compared to polyester filler.
Marine epoxy such as "splash zone" may actually be stronger than lead, depending on how you look at it.
As far as I know the reason it is not used as filler..... is because it is more expensive and difficult to sand, but compared to lead?
If you guys are hardcore enough to use lead then epoxy should be a walk in the park . |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Hi yall. So i got this ultra straight hood for my 65. Problem is, the very nose has got some heavy pitting. probably from grass rubbing against it. I just watched the eastwood video on using lead, and it doesnt seem too hard.
question is, if i remove every spec of rust from the nose, keep everything super clean, neutralize the acids, and tin the surface correctly, should i have any problems on the pitted steel? the hood naturally flexes a bit, does the lead care? can it crack that way?
or is that raptor filler stuff better?
thanks _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 11005
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Skim coat it with filler. Lead is still filler and can still fail. I’ve seen it cause reactions on paint that looks like blistering and I’m talking about factory lead. _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Dibaltic Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007 Posts: 564 Location: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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I think you should replace the bottom of that hood. Once you get all the rust off it looks like it will be very thin/full of holes. Viraten makes a good repair piece, i used it on my hood. Just cut out the bad no need to use the whole repair panel. |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Lead vs Filler - is lead worth the extra effort? |
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Dibaltic wrote: |
I think you should replace the bottom of that hood. Once you get all the rust off it looks like it will be very thin/full of holes. Viraten makes a good repair piece, i used it on my hood. Just cut out the bad no need to use the whole repair panel. |
honestly that sounds like a much better idea. do you happen to have a link? i did a google search and came up with nada.
thanks! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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