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Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Hi All,

So I had a play with the gears, with the shifter out.

Short of taking it for a drive the trans appears to select all gears just fine.

There is no up/down/side movement at the shift rod/coupling and about 5-8mm forward back movement when in any gear. All feels fine.

The issue is, as was my gut feeling, that the trans and therefore shift tube are all too far forward. So much so that no shifter can get 2nd, and 4th and R was only able to be found with one. Due to the more diagonal angle of reverse, I think that's why it is still there (though only just).

Check the photos... trans is in 2nd!!!

If I assume it WAS running fine and the shift tube is the orig, then that means some how the trans has moved forward. Is that possible? Its a 62 chassis with 002 trans and a solid 10 degree mount.

I reckon the whole thing needs to come forward at least 12-15mm before its back in reasonable reach for any shifter.

Thoughts, solutions?

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Last edited by AaronJ1970 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tripicana
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

You need to weld an adjustable end onto your shift rod to center it in the opening.
https://www.amazon.com/EMPI-17-2724-SHIFT-ADJUSTER-Buggy/dp/B00BJPYARE
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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Can we see close-up how the trans is mounted?
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

I pulled the skid plate off, so its the first time I've properly seen the front mounts.

As mentioned, it is a solid mount 002.

There is a single bolt mount at the nose cone, that looks to already space the trans back by about 15mm by a large nut and washer.

Then there is another horridly welded 4 bold mount at the front of the trans, with no back spacing.

And then the solid/poly mounts on the horn at the back of the trans, again looking like no back spacing.

Puzzling, but it looks like the trans has not/could not have moved forward, given how solidly mounted it is, which raises a huge question over whether it could have ever selected those gears in its current form.

From my newby perspective, it looks like my easiest option is going to be to shorten the shift tube??? Spacing the trans back about 15mm is going to put some strain on all of the 7 mounting bolts and mounts I'd have though, not to mention some messing around with spacers.

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tripicana
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Front and rear mounts are both poorly designed.
Looks like the rear uses a rubber mount, normally that causes a solidly mounted nose cone to break.
Both the solid mounts and a real 10 degree mount require holes drilled into the bellhousing, and fastened the same as a beetle, in the rear.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Well the geometry is definitely off. The shifter cup should be essentially centered in the opening. It looks like the PO had the same issue as there look to be ‘nuts for spacers’ on that nose mount. Too bad the mid mount is welded. That’s a limiting factor but shortening the shift rod is you easiest route.
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks Jeff.

For now the aim is just to get it up and running on the road via the shortest path possible. Then when, I have time and have worked the end goal for the buggy, I'll do a full rebuilt. At that point, I'll address all the issues that are coming to light, all fo which are fairly easy fixes one the buggy is stripped down.

Question... I cant actually see anything majorly wrong with the forward/back mounting position of the trans (namely, it looks OK at the horn mount). Given its a 62 chassis that was IRS converted, and, I know when the 2x past PO bought it, it had a bug trans and swing axle (IRS mounts were also there). That 2xPO did the 002/IRS/3x3 conversion. Is there an issue they missed with the conversion, (thinking 62 chassis versus OO2) that could explain the trans being too far forward? i.e. is it longer than a bug trans and needs mounts that place it back a bit??

All that aside, it still puzzles me, as I have seen phots (not videos mind you) of it on the road with the 2xPO post IRS/002 conversion. He'd have had a hell of a time driving it wiht only 1st and 3rd I've have thought!
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Maddward
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

I had some shifter problems in my old car. I fixed it on page 2 of my thread. It ended up being the coupler. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

If only it was just the coupling like yours!

Can confirm coupling, bush, hanger, etc all good. My issue is sheer geometry at this stage and somehow, the trans just has to be to far forward or something too long somewhere.
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tripicana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Modifying the shift rod is a common procedure for putting a bus trans in a bug.
I used that adjustable end that I linked, to fine tune the length.
I also used a universal joint since I run the 10 degree mount.
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks for that. Any photos of the coupling/UJ/adjuster?

Last edited by AaronJ1970 on Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tripicana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Wow. Cool. Nice bit of work.

I think with mine, given I will likely at some point, rework the trans mounts into something better, I'll go with just the adjuster, set to about the mid point of the shift cup and adjuster. That way, once reworked, I can adjust to any changes in trans position.

Thanks for your input and photos.


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tripicana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Careful with the heat welding the adjuster, it's easy to distort the threads.
Leave a gap, and fill in the groove, that way you can grind the weld smooth to be able to slide it past the front bushing.
Good luck!
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lelef
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

under the yellow arrow there is a bushing, if it fails the shift tube goes left and right and doesn't rotate so shifting is difficult
if the bushing is ok without shortening the rod tube you can grind a little of metal and do the same to the holes of your shift plate to have more range of adjustment
this could solve the problem
use rubber mounts at the rear and solid in the front doesn't work,goes all rubber or all solid mounts
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:23 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thought I'd give a final update on this one, as in the end I just handed it over to my VW mechanic to sort this and many other issues out for me (time poor).

Turns out there were two main issues being (1) the shift shaft was to long due to the slightly forward mounted 009 trans so it was shortened about 10mm and (2) the steel ball/bushing and in the nose cone and nose cone bushing were all not good and with lots of play (not exactly sure of the specifics).

Shortening the rod was way easier/cheaper than redoing all the crappy trans mounts. As it was shortened at the front end of the rod, when the trans is moved back, I'll weld in an adjuster at the trans end to give the 10mm, or whatever is needed, back.

I pick it up tomorrow, but have been told shifting is nice and tight.

Thanks for all your earlier input and help.

Combined with fully rebuild spindles/knuckles, all new brake lines and full top end rebuild, I'm hoping it'll be lots of fun (my first buggy).
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