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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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So I've read that copper nuts are best used on exhaust because they are easier to remove in the future. I was set to get some when I came across several different kinds and I was hoping to get a recommendation from you guys. I plan on using A2 stainless steel bolts because I read that A4 is more brittle due to its higher corrosion properties.
Slit nut
https://www.belmetric.com/regular-hex-c-3_51_52/nc8x13-copper-exhaustslit-coarse-thread-p-184.html
Or
Conical nut
https://www.belmetric.com/regular-hex-c-3_51_52/nclh8x13cpr-copper-conical-lock-nut-p-10433.html
Both appear to be self locking.
I plan to use tcash's install method (although I'll need to look up the annealing process for the copper gaskets)
| Tcash wrote: |
These with a little Nickel Anti-Seize will do.
The trick is to:
1. file the pipes flat
2. dry fit heat exchangers, file mounting holes, tweak pipes. they should slide on without binding and not rock.
3. on a piece of glass, sand flat the copper gaskets.
4. anneal the copper gaskets.
5. scotch brite copper gaskets after annealing and head mating surface.
6. chase exhaust studs.
7. Install gaskets with a light coating of high temp grease. This allows the gasket to move slightly and seat.
8. Install nuts with Nickel Anti-Seize and torque to specification.
This is where most people stop.
9. It is very important to perform heat cycles (let engine cool overnight) and re-torque nuts. Continue this process until the nuts no longer turn.
Good Luck
Tcash |
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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I prefer this style:
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All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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I've had great results with M8 Jet nuts with a 3/8" hex head.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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Damn, I was afraid you guys were going to say that. Those are $14 more than the conicals:(
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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You can buy cheap SS nuts of Lowe Quality. They will hold fine and cut like butter with aDremel to remove. Put your bucks where they count.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| You can buy cheap SS nuts of Lowe Quality. They will hold fine and cut like butter with aDremel to remove. Put your bucks where they count. |
I would NOT use stainless steel on the exhaust, they WILL gaul.
The Jet nuts I used came off like "butter" 6 years after they were first put on.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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i have used the jet nuts and the bass ones as well. if needed, very little heat is used to get them free.
99.99% of the time the pinchy copper nuts like to pull studs it seems...and is very annoying when removing heat exchangers. even with heat, they don't seem to give up the grip
SS as pointed out will gall pretty good. I have used them on something like a cat back 3 bolt flange and even with anti seize they like to gall.
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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So what's the suggestion then?
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Mispeld
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2018
Posts: 355
Location: Jacksonville - Coastal NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| BUSBOSS wrote: |
I prefer this style:
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I just finished a top end rebuild this afternoon on my daughter's car since she decided to break an idler pulley for the timing belt and bend all 16 valves  . Anyway, I had the acetylene at the ready when I removed the exhaust manifold and come to find out both intake and exhaust manifolds had these copper nuts. They came right off! What a great feeling- you know... when something goes right!  This wasn't a VW though.
I was thinking these would be great on my bus. Then I saw this thread. I'm going to use them when the day comes that I need to tear apart the bus exhaust. Thought I'd share how easy it was to remove the copper exhaust nuts but I don't live where they salt roads either.
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1977 Westy. 2.0 Fuel Injected. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| ivwshane wrote: |
| So what's the suggestion then? |
lots of anti-seize, then hit it with a penetration oil like PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench before removing and pray. I've seen every kind of brass or copper nut seize regardless what anyone says. The combination of copper nuts, anti-seize and Liquid wrench before loosening seems to work the best.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| ivwshane wrote: |
| So what's the suggestion then? |
Jet nuts... that's what i use.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ivwshane wrote: |
| So what's the suggestion then? |
Jet nuts... that's what i use. |
That's what I ordered but my question now is about what bolts to use.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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bolts for what? flanges?
you can use SS if its a nut/bolt deal...who cares if it breaks? if you are bolting INTO something I would use normal bolts with anti seize. if it breaks it's way easier to drill than SS
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
bolts for what? flanges?
you can use SS if its a nut/bolt deal...who cares if it breaks? if you are bolting INTO something I would use normal bolts with anti seize. if it breaks it's way easier to drill than SS |
I guess "exhaust" was too broad of a term. I am indeed talking about nuts/bolts on flanges, like the heat exchangers and connected pipes.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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I like the green coated steel bolts.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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I have tried both the copper and the 11mm brass. They both tend to allow exhaust leaks over time and when tightened after running them for a long time they just strip. Steel nuts are needed eventually.
I just read a thread somewhere the other day about studs. A lot of people like stainless steel but it is brittle breaks and some stainless has crystals and is hard to drill.
Grade 5 steel would drill out good but may twist off if trying to loosen a frozen steel nut. I am now toying with the idea of running these little Flanged steel nuts that use a 10mm 12 point wrench with nickel-based anti-seize compound. Grade 8 studs are the toughest but are difficult to drill and must be welded on to remove if broken. When the same grade 8 steel bolts and steel nuts are used for example on the muffler and are reused a couple of times they get where they won't freeze up, at least if taken apart once in a while like every 2 or three years. This being said my machinist installed cheap all-thread stainless studs on my last heads.
My heads with ss all-thread. I will probably use the copper nuts as one has a Heli-Coil.
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Last edited by Danwvw on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:42 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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If you are pulling the exhaust onto the flange the hardware isn't the problem, the crappy exhaust is. Heat and bend to fit.
If you use the cheap SS it's a cinch to drill or Drexel off. It's soft
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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I've never lived in the rust belt but I have worked on some rusty cars. That's a small slice of hell to remove salt rusted hardware. However, In S. Cal and Arizona, I've never had an issue removing the stock nuts off the exhaust studs. Even ones that have been on their for decades. Penetrating oil almost always gets them loose. Once in a blue moon, I may need to heat a nut with a torch but it's rare.
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Magion
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 236
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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Quick question, I installed f pipes onto my rebuild engine yesterday. pretty much followed Ratwell. I used copper Jet nuts and did not used any anti seize as in his article he says do not use or very sparingly to prevent rusting studs.
I am second questioning this thinking maybe I should go back and put some copper anti seize on. This would probably require a new set of jet nuts.
My bus sees rain couple times a year an will never see salt...
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Cap10323
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 604
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Copper nuts (exhaust) |
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Since I live in the rust belt. I always use the copper nuts, and then slather everything in the high temp nickel anti-seize.
I just replaced my exhaust manifold on my daily driver Subaru (rusted out again), but luckily the last time I'd replaced it (5 years ago, when the factory one rusted out) I'd used the copper nuts and anti-seize. Came off like butter.
Whatever you do, don't be like the P.O of my Bus and install bolts to hold the exhaust system on. They will break off and cause you a world of suffering.
I agree with TCash, you have to do do the heat cycles thing. When I did my exhaust on my Bus. It didn't 100% seal until re-torqued it after a couple of heat cycles.
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