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sandhopper
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 453
Location: Norwalk Ca
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 Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:47 am Post subject: caster shims |
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After reading this I added them to my clone . Have not done much over 40 mph yet but best $10 spent . Made the sterring tighter feel
Big Bear was fun Fun fun |
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Goshen
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2012
Posts: 833
Location: Miami. FL & Cartagena
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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I bought castor shims when I got my adjustable beam, left them at the alignment shop with the instructions that I wanted them put in. They sent them back to me saying it didn't need them but the car is a bear at highway speed.
I am going to put them in and see... |
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ALB
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008
Posts: 3483
Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| oprn wrote: |
I bought castor shims when I got my adjustable beam, left them at the alignment shop with the instructions that I wanted them put in. They sent them back to me saying it didn't need them but the car is a bear at highway speed.
I am going to put them in and see... |
It had at least minimum caster (about 3 degrees) so they weren't going to put the effort into installing your shims. Is your buggy higher than stock? If so it probably has slightly more than minimum, so I don't know if it will make a difference for you, but it's certainly something to try. I have friends with buggies (we do a few offroad trips into the mountains every summer) and, to be honest, I don't think any of them handle all that well at highway speeds. I'm pretty sure none of those cars have added caster!
Beetles have just enough caster so a stock car doesn't wander unnecessarily at 55-60 mph. Any more caster and VW was afraid that some "petit" women would find the steering too heavy at low speeds, but the factory recognized some cars may need more, so shims have been available from the dealers since the late '50's or very early '60's.
I drove a Cal Look bug for several years (my main transportation) in the late '70's/early '80's, and with the front end dropped about 5" with a Select-a-drop and 135's the car was a bit of a handful at legal highway speeds. I took it up to just over 100mph (it was down a straight, very long hill) once, and a side wind put me in the next lane before I could react, it was that bad. Never did that again. You've probably guessed that I didn't know about the effects of not enough caster or that shims were available at the time.
I have a Speedster replica now, am active on Speedsterowners.com and this is a fairly frequent topic. Speedsters are shorter (11 1/4"?) than Beetles, lowered as well, and most of the guys on the site that do any highway driving at all have caster shims under the bottom beam. One of the guys recommends 6' minimum for high speed safety. Having a shorter wheelbase, maybe buggies need substantially more caster as well?
As usual, just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al
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On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!!
Last edited by ALB on Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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ALWAYS TRY CASTER SHIMS, I built two buggies, both extremely low and very much down tilt of tunnel on front (removes caster)... I put in caster shims on both buggies, both buggies ran extremely straight at 60-70 MPH so well you could actually run without any correction applied to steering wheel, but had extremely good handling manners on street and autocross course....
You could have put in shims, and done a test drive and formed your own opinion in the time you have sat in front of computer screen and discussing it here.... Go get the shims and wrenches and try it, you may find the "collective" here has it right about adding shims....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| ALWAYS TRY CASTER SHIMS ... |
I really want to, except for: Rust
As you can see, I've bent back the lock plate corners. That's where I chicken'd out. Note the sort of figure 8 (or maybe 6) rust HOLE in the bulk head front surface.
Here's a view looking at lower right* (passenger) side of bulk head:
For orientation:
1. Edge view of front surface
2. Lower right* side beam bolt
3. Lower torsion tube
4. Right* side of bulk head
You can see garage floor through the rust holes on side surface, "thanks" to even larger holes in bulk head bottom plate! So, should I really try to loosen bolts that have been in place since 1965 and "simply" slip castor shims in??
*Edit: Originally had Left. That's what it was to me, looking at beam. But it's Right side of car. |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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Looking at all the rusted away metal, you are a accident waiting to happen.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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Park it...... Until you can put new beams and pan head on it....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
| ... accident waiting to happen. |
| Dale M. wrote: |
| Park it...... Until you can put new beams and pan head on it... |
Thanks guys, good advice. Only a few months ago, I drove this buggy from South Florida to Northern Michigan on a 3,000+ mile trip with some of the biggest pot holes I've ever been through. Guess I'm just lucky.
Considering something similar to what @Merk has done with his parts pile buggy:
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woodoctr
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2013
Posts: 254
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| And that, at least to me, is another front end just waiting to fold up. I've had two pretty bad accidents in the last three months......Kid pulled out from a dead stop in front of me (about 50 feet or less) when I was towing my delivery trailer. I was only going 35 and the impact totaled my late model Hyundai Santa Fe. Moved the entire front of the vehicle over and back 9 inches and broke the engine cradle. You think those welds attached to rust on that front end would do anything????? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| Yes this Buggy is quite low in the front and yes the highway handling did deteriorate when I installed the adjustable beam. The shims are going in tomorrow as long as I don't get called out to work all day. The test drive will not likely happen for a couple months though as I am not that keen to drive an open Buggy at -25 with a 70mph wind chill. |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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We can use a bit of highschool Trigonometry to calculate the angle that installing castor shims will add to previous castor angel. First, define some letters:
Let d = distance between torsion tubes
and t = thickness of shim (at center)
Now, we can envision a tall thin right triangle whose height is d and base is t. The angle we want to calculate is the sharp one at top, whose Tangent is its opposite side, t, divided by its adjacent side, d. So:
Angle = invTan(t/d)
Since I don't have official values for t or d, using tape measure I get t~0.24" and d~4.6" for my link pin beam. This gives:
Angle = invTan(0.24/4.6) = 2.98663... , or about 3° |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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Cool!
I got called out to work today so the shims didn't happen but they will as soon as I get time. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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Cool!
I got called out to work today so the shims didn't happen but they will as soon as I get time. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| oprn wrote: |
| Yes this Buggy is quite low in the front and yes the highway handling did deteriorate when I installed the adjustable beam. The shims are going in tomorrow as long as I don't get called out to work all day. The test drive will not likely happen for a couple months though as I am not that keen to drive an open Buggy at -25 with a 70mph wind chill. |
No guts.....No Glory....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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Ok - so I fibbed a bit. I did take it for a quick rip around the block after I changed the idle jets and leaned out the accelerator pump stroke 2 turns. It has warmed up a bit too - up to +2 today!
Man this thing is a hoot on ice and snow, swaps ends in the blink of an eye!  |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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| oprn wrote: |
Ok - so I fibbed a bit. I did take it for a quick rip around the block after I changed the idle jets and leaned out the accelerator pump stroke 2 turns. It has warmed up a bit too - up to +2 today!
Man this thing is a hoot on ice and snow, swaps ends in the blink of an eye! :D |
I've done that in warm weather on auto cross courses....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Caster Shims |
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The castor shims went in today. It should have been a 5 minute job but ended up taking 3/4 of an hour. The bottom bolts would have only been catching the first 4 threads so I turned in the longer ones I bought. They bottomed out against greasy mud and rust long before they tightened up properly. I didn't have a tap to chase them with so ended up using extra flat washers to take up the space.
I was afraid these shims would make the steering too stiff in parking lots but just rolling around the shop I can really feel no difference at all! I also increased the ride height on the front beam an inch or so to try to get rid of the air time this front end does at speed on big bumps. |
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