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Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper?
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Spike0180
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
There is the Type 4 with an upright conversion as an option as well. For a stock 2.0 that is about a 40% increase in torque IIRC and a doubling or tripling in longevity over a stock 1600 Type 1.


^ this.
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

I always wanted to hack the trunk of a notchback or fastback for an upright conversion. Make it look as nice as possible with a 356 intake grill on the trunk lid. Then put a T4 conversion with the Porsche fan, dual carbs.

Then I saw this.


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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

making HP in a VW engine has never been the challenge. It is the heat and weak cases on a T1 motor, and the heat on a T4. The DTM helps with the heat. That said was just watching a special on the SR-71. The reason the engineers went with titanium is because aluminum begins to lose its strength at 300F. Maybe the solution we all need is titanium heads for our engines.
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lintbrush
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:

...The engine becomes an 1800cc. There are several reasons why this becomes your best choice but my finger won’t last that long.
...
If you want to know the details you can Pm me here. I’ll reply with both details and pictures of actual builds.


Thanks Gary. Yeah, I've seen some of your build pics and I had made a mental note to add Gem VW to my shortlist to do further research with. I'll PM you as I'm curious how you landed at 1800.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

And bringing up the rear, a totally stock 1970 single port 1600 road warrior par excellence. I thoroughly enjoyed this engine across the country for five years and 77,000 trouble-free miles (after I stuck on some used heads at JamesDwan's house):


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Then I rebuilt it in spring of 2017. The new engine has only done 27,000 trouble-free miles so far:

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Seriously, when given the choice, I will take factory engineering dependability any day of the week anywhere in the country over performance gains. Even with a massaged engine, a VW bus entering the freeway scrum is a poke.

I have gotten so used to it, so comfortable with it, that I do Washington DC New York City Boston Chicago Seattle Los Angeles Dallas with nary a second thought. And I do mountains steep dirt roads without a thought, because that little stock engine has better torque low down than all comers:

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It's a beautiful day in the climbing lane with my 1970 bus:

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aeromech
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

lintbrush wrote:
aeromech wrote:

...The engine becomes an 1800cc. There are several reasons why this becomes your best choice but my finger won’t last that long.
...
If you want to know the details you can Pm me here. I’ll reply with both details and pictures of actual builds.


Thanks Gary. Yeah, I've seen some of your build pics and I had made a mental note to add Gem VW to my shortlist to do further research with. I'll PM you as I'm curious how you landed at 1800.


I felt it was the best combination of power, longevity, reliability, maintainability, and driveability. I maintain the simplicity of the stock Solex 34pICT-3 plus the stock distributor and stock T1 exhaust for carb heat. New case is the only way to go unless you feel comfortable with one that’s 48 years old
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
New case is the only way to go unless you feel comfortable with one that’s 48 years old


New case is the only way to go. I've recently seen several good new Autolina magnesium cases that would be good for a stock build. Autolinas aluminum cases are great for larger displacement builds. They are strong with reliable quality. If you’re gonna build a killer one, the CB case is the way to go!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

He right probably. Big Engine that 2L+ might need a stronger case like that. I’m happy with my new AS41 supplied by GEMVW
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

what works for one, doesn't work for another.

I am happy with the 1904 in my 71 westy. it does ok. will cruise 75 no problem. however when I get the time, I will be doing a Subaru in that. if for no other reason it transforms the bus into a nice quiet ride. spinning 3k @75 is so much better than 4,700 rpms

if you're going to stay stock(ish) go with a stroker. a 1904 is a 1776 with a bit bigger crank. the clearance you have to do is minimal. I am running 36 DRLA's and it's fun to drive. night and day compared to the new 1600 I pulled out of it.

rev's kill these. and to prove it take an 8v rabbit and a 8v GTI. the GTI was "faster" due to the short gears. the econobox rabbit 8v went forever where the GTI 8v (same exact engine) was a mess at the same mileage

build something, then build it again when it wears out. who the fuck cares how many miles you got out of it? for fuck sake even domestic iron of that same vintage needed a top end at the same mileage. no matter which way you slice it old technology+modern demands = something is going to wear out
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:08 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

Hmm, well I've had most stock engines in buses over the years, 1600,1700, 2000, a wasser crank 2020 and finally a 2.4L type-4 . To say a stocker beats all comers for low down torque just indicates ignorance unless your 1600 stocker has magically acquired 180ft/lb torque at 1800 rpm. My guess is I have two or (most likely nearer) three times the peak torque of a stock 1600 and down at 1800rpm, probably four times. 16,000 trouble free miles so far.

For a bus, bigger is better. I enjoyed driving my 1600 for sure, but 2.4L makes for a relaxing journey including getting up to speed on ramps and horror of horrors comfortably overtaking other vehicles where the 1600 would need a mile to get up to speed. I now look at 2L engines as a bit small and there's no way I'd consider having one. A 1600 should be in a beetle where it's just fine for everyday driving.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly.


This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.

There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.

Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.

What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
SGKent wrote:
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly.


This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.

There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.

Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.

What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch).


Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting.
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
richparker wrote:
SGKent wrote:
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly.


This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.

There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.

Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.

What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch).


Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting.



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OK, this thread is over. You win.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
SGKent wrote:
richparker wrote:
SGKent wrote:
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly.


This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.

There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.

Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.

What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch).


Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting.



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Little early in the mornig to be drinking already isn't it Notch?
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

Im feeling a little spry. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
Im feeling a little spry. Wink


Applause Laughing
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