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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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I have all the Saturn Vue parts for sale I bought them for my baja bug but don't have any time to do the conversion.
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Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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I believe there a lot of 2000+ cars that had EPS systems of various styles - do some googling and you'll find plenty. I went with the Saturn Vue as it seems to be the most common for hacking into another vehicle.
I did have to cut a radius in the side flange of the heater plastic box cover to clear the drive motor of the Vue EPS. I did a decent job though and it looks factory if you didn't know better.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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pierrox
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Joined: March 06, 2013
Posts: 258
Location: Paris, London, The Alps, North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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That description sounds like the same EPS on the Vauxhall/Opel cars here in Europe with people having to hack the heater box to fit it on a LHD Vanagon. No such problem in England.
Did you have to remove the whole heater box to do so? Or did you hack it in place?
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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I simply held it near it's location (horizontally) and marked the center-line of the EPS motor. Using the diameter of the motor, I made a cardboard circle and transferred this to the plastic cover. After a few fit-checks and adjusting the cutout deeper, it fit just dandy.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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tobloyd
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018
Posts: 184
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| So basically any of them should work fine, and people tend to use the Saturn one just because it’s common and easy to find? |
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tobloyd
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018
Posts: 184
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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For example would this $357 Ford one on eBay work, and is that everything I’d need?
Complete Electric Power Steering Rack And Pinion Assembly 10-12 Ford Fusion, MKZ HIGHEST QUALITY - LIFETIME WARRANTY! $357.02
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| tobloyd wrote: |
| So basically any of them should work fine, and people tend to use the Saturn one just because it’s common and easy to find? |
Well, I'm not an expert on all the options  - I just know that the Vue worked for me, was easy to find on eBay, and the other bits as well.
When I bought mine, I got the whole column as well, complete with the steering shaft and two u-joints. I used bits and pieces from all of that and don't know how you'd do it otherwise.
I still think it's the best mod I've done and I've done plenty to this van.
One reason to consider another make would be spare parts. Eventually Saturn parts are gonna be very hard to find.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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I'd say that depends on how much you want it to fit. I've seen a V8 stuffed into a Vanagon and quite nicely at that. As for the Electric steering rack you posted, I have no idea.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| tobloyd wrote: |
For example would this $357 Ford one on eBay work, and is that everything I’d need?
Complete Electric Power Steering Rack And Pinion Assembly 10-12 Ford Fusion, MKZ HIGHEST QUALITY - LIFETIME WARRANTY! $357.02
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That is a powered rack.
Most people use a powered steering column style. That is what the Vue is. Its an in/out setup that installs in the column. Has torque sensors and the assist motor.
A powered rack is totally different.
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Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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vwhammer
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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Dang I wish I would have seen this sooner.
I guess I have always known that Electric power steering existed but I guess I never really gave it much thought as my vans already had power steering.
However I am doing an ABA swap in my 2wd van and the stock PS pump was seized.
I bought a new pump and upon trying to remove the old pump from the bracket I broke the bracket.
I then sourced another bracket.
Now after getting the old engine out it is apparent that I need all new lines as mine are nearly rusted through.
I guess the question now is do I cut my losses and just do the EPS set up or buy new PS lines for my existing system?
I am putting a pretty serious electrical system in my van for some other stuff I am doing and I like the simplicity of the EPS set up over having all of the lines and junk.
Seems like I will be doing more research into this topic. |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| vwhammer wrote: |
. . . I like the simplicity of the EPS set up over having all of the lines and junk.
Seems like I will be doing more research into this topic. |
You may need to replace your power steering (hydraulic rack) with a manual unit - not sure. Personally, the EPS unit is fairly easy to install - took me about two days working slow. I am fortunate to have a lathe, mill and a welder. Not sure I'd attempt it without these tools.
It is so far, maintenance free. No fluid to leak, no hoses to route/protect, no goofy fiber discs to wear out (all replaced with u-joints). Another nice feature is that I have power steering within 5 seconds of turning the key to "on".
Sometimes I leave the wheels turned when I pull into a parking space. If my wife is stepping out she asks me to turn them in so she doesn't get tire dirt on her leg . I just turn the key and spin them straight.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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I should also mention that I added a small fuse panel next to the stock one and as I recall needed to use a fairly high amp fuse to protect the drive motor.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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vwhammer
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| Gizmoman wrote: |
| You may need to replace your power steering (hydraulic rack) with a manual unit - not sure. Personally, the EPS unit is fairly easy to install - took me about two days working slow. I am fortunate to have a lathe, mill and a welder. Not sure I'd attempt it without these tools. |
I have run power racks with no power and it works ok.
You can just run a loop on the inlet and outlet.
Since a power rack has the advantage of... well... power, they likely change the ratios to reduce the turns lock to lock.
This makes a power rack with no power a bit harder to turn.
Of course none of that would matter because I would be re-powering it alternatively.
I also wondered about the rest of the steering linkage.
Since you are powering it up closer to the steering wheel, everything down stream of that would be seeing more stress and strain than it was originally designed for.
If I were to do this I would also likely change the rubbery fiber flex joint thing with an actual joint.
I also have a lathe, and mill that I can use and I have a couple of welders, a plasma cutter and a cold cut saw in the garage.
None of the fabrication parts concern me too much.
like I said I will research a bit more but I am real close buying the parts for an EPS system. |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| vwhammer wrote: |
| Gizmoman wrote: |
| You may need to replace your power steering (hydraulic rack) with a manual unit - not sure. Personally, the EPS unit is fairly easy to install - took me about two days working slow. I am fortunate to have a lathe, mill and a welder. Not sure I'd attempt it without these tools. |
I have run power racks with no power and it works ok.
You can just run a loop on the inlet and outlet.
Since a power rack has the advantage of... well... power, they likely change the ratios to reduce the turns lock to lock.
This makes a power rack with no power a bit harder to turn.
Of course none of that would matter because I would be re-powering it alternatively.
I also wondered about the rest of the steering linkage.
Since you are powering it up closer to the steering wheel, everything down stream of that would be seeing more stress and strain than it was originally designed for.
If I were to do this I would also likely change the rubbery fiber flex joint thing with an actual joint.
I also have a lathe, and mill that I can use and I have a couple of welders, a plasma cutter and a cold cut saw in the garage.
None of the fabrication parts concern me too much.
like I said I will research a bit more but I am real close buying the parts for an EPS system. |
Good info on the hydraulic rack. All the "rubbery bits" are replaced by u-joints - that is why I purchased the COMPLETE steering unit instead of just the drive assembly - the u-joint and a few other required parts came with it.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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nineronesix
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2018
Posts: 1
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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Hey Guys, I happen to be a chassis engineer that has tuned EPS systems for more than a decade.
Personally I think converting to EPS is a great idea, but there are a few things to think about.
1. The EPS system is attached to the CAN bus, and that is where it gets vehicle speed along with other chassis signals. Some systems require an additional steering angle sensor that is not part of the EPS unit. (you don't want to mess with a system that needs an external angle sensor)
2. When the CAN bus is not attached, most EPS systems will default to a fixed speed rather than a limp mode. For example, one system I tune defaults to 80kph. This means the assist at parking speeds will be low and assist at high speeds may be a little high. Generally this shouldn't be a huge problem. All the race cars I've installed EPS have had a fixed curve and it hasn't been a problem.
3. Traditional power steering provides assist at the steering gear (rack). This means the force going through the intermediate shafts and U joints is only the force you feel in the steering wheel, not what it really takes to steer the vehicle. A column mounted EPS needs stronger U joints with no rubber joints since all the steering force is now traveling through those components.
4. If you are starting with a manual steering system, then a column EPS shouldn't be a problem. (It's very possible that the steering components in the power steering Vanagons are the same as the manual steering Vanagons, but I don't know that for sure)
5. The rack mounted EPS would be a great alternative, since you can keep everything original inside the vehicle. The only issue is it may need a steering wheel sensor to work correctly. If my power steering goes out, I may investigate this option. |
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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| nineronesix wrote: |
Hey Guys, I happen to be a chassis engineer that has tuned EPS systems for more than a decade.
Personally I think converting to EPS is a great idea, but there are a few things to think about.
1. The EPS system is attached to the CAN bus, and that is where it gets vehicle speed along with other chassis signals. Some systems require an additional steering angle sensor that is not part of the EPS unit. (you don't want to mess with a system that needs an external angle sensor)
2. When the CAN bus is not attached, most EPS systems will default to a fixed speed rather than a limp mode. For example, one system I tune defaults to 80kph. This means the assist at parking speeds will be low and assist at high speeds may be a little high. Generally this shouldn't be a huge problem. All the race cars I've installed EPS have had a fixed curve and it hasn't been a problem.
3. Traditional power steering provides assist at the steering gear (rack). This means the force going through the intermediate shafts and U joints is only the force you feel in the steering wheel, not what it really takes to steer the vehicle. A column mounted EPS needs stronger U joints with no rubber joints since all the steering force is now traveling through those components.
4. If you are starting with a manual steering system, then a column EPS shouldn't be a problem. (It's very possible that the steering components in the power steering Vanagons are the same as the manual steering Vanagons, but I don't know that for sure)
5. The rack mounted EPS would be a great alternative, since you can keep everything original inside the vehicle. The only issue is it may need a steering wheel sensor to work correctly. If my power steering goes out, I may investigate this option. |
The aftermarket ebay controller people attach to the saturn vue setup has a potentiometer to adjust assist. It is giving a dummy signal to replace the vehicle speed CAN output that is normally supplied.
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Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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^^^ what he said.
The same guys that made the potentiometer also make a fixed unit. I went with this option and have no issues. My first thoughts were that it would feel too "flimsy" at speed but I haven't found that to be the case at all.
Sure, it would be nice if it got a bit stiffer at speed but really, it's fine at a fixed power setting.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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vwhammer
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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Anyone have any ideas on what years to look for when buying a Vue EPS?
What years have been used successfully? |
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Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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Steve (posted here) said he has one for sale.
I believe 02-07 but am not positive.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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vwfreek61
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2004
Posts: 350
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Electric power steering? |
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| vwhammer wrote: |
Anyone have any ideas on what years to look for when buying a Vue EPS?
What years have been used successfully? |
02-07 Vue or 05-06 Equinox.
I got my controller off eBay from Europe, but there is a U.S. source now:
http://www.epowersteering.com/purchase/product/basic-kit
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