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Spike0180 Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015 Posts: 2269 Location: Detroit, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
There is the Type 4 with an upright conversion as an option as well. For a stock 2.0 that is about a 40% increase in torque IIRC and a doubling or tripling in longevity over a stock 1600 Type 1. |
^ this. _________________ Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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I always wanted to hack the trunk of a notchback or fastback for an upright conversion. Make it look as nice as possible with a 356 intake grill on the trunk lid. Then put a T4 conversion with the Porsche fan, dual carbs.
Then I saw this.
_________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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making HP in a VW engine has never been the challenge. It is the heat and weak cases on a T1 motor, and the heat on a T4. The DTM helps with the heat. That said was just watching a special on the SR-71. The reason the engineers went with titanium is because aluminum begins to lose its strength at 300F. Maybe the solution we all need is titanium heads for our engines. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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lintbrush Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2013 Posts: 269 Location: Campbell, California
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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aeromech wrote: |
...The engine becomes an 1800cc. There are several reasons why this becomes your best choice but my finger won’t last that long.
...
If you want to know the details you can Pm me here. I’ll reply with both details and pictures of actual builds. |
Thanks Gary. Yeah, I've seen some of your build pics and I had made a mental note to add Gem VW to my shortlist to do further research with. I'll PM you as I'm curious how you landed at 1800. _________________ 1970 Westfalia Campmobile - SF Bay Area
https://www.instagram.com/campishome/ |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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And bringing up the rear, a totally stock 1970 single port 1600 road warrior par excellence. I thoroughly enjoyed this engine across the country for five years and 77,000 trouble-free miles (after I stuck on some used heads at JamesDwan's house):
Then I rebuilt it in spring of 2017. The new engine has only done 27,000 trouble-free miles so far:
Seriously, when given the choice, I will take factory engineering dependability any day of the week anywhere in the country over performance gains. Even with a massaged engine, a VW bus entering the freeway scrum is a poke.
I have gotten so used to it, so comfortable with it, that I do Washington DC New York City Boston Chicago Seattle Los Angeles Dallas with nary a second thought. And I do mountains steep dirt roads without a thought, because that little stock engine has better torque low down than all comers:
It's a beautiful day in the climbing lane with my 1970 bus:
_________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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lintbrush wrote: |
aeromech wrote: |
...The engine becomes an 1800cc. There are several reasons why this becomes your best choice but my finger won’t last that long.
...
If you want to know the details you can Pm me here. I’ll reply with both details and pictures of actual builds. |
Thanks Gary. Yeah, I've seen some of your build pics and I had made a mental note to add Gem VW to my shortlist to do further research with. I'll PM you as I'm curious how you landed at 1800. |
I felt it was the best combination of power, longevity, reliability, maintainability, and driveability. I maintain the simplicity of the stock Solex 34pICT-3 plus the stock distributor and stock T1 exhaust for carb heat. New case is the only way to go unless you feel comfortable with one that’s 48 years old _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6937 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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aeromech wrote: |
New case is the only way to go unless you feel comfortable with one that’s 48 years old |
New case is the only way to go. I've recently seen several good new Autolina magnesium cases that would be good for a stock build. Autolinas aluminum cases are great for larger displacement builds. They are strong with reliable quality. If you’re gonna build a killer one, the CB case is the way to go! _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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He right probably. Big Engine that 2L+ might need a stronger case like that. I’m happy with my new AS41 supplied by GEMVW _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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what works for one, doesn't work for another.
I am happy with the 1904 in my 71 westy. it does ok. will cruise 75 no problem. however when I get the time, I will be doing a Subaru in that. if for no other reason it transforms the bus into a nice quiet ride. spinning 3k @75 is so much better than 4,700 rpms
if you're going to stay stock(ish) go with a stroker. a 1904 is a 1776 with a bit bigger crank. the clearance you have to do is minimal. I am running 36 DRLA's and it's fun to drive. night and day compared to the new 1600 I pulled out of it.
rev's kill these. and to prove it take an 8v rabbit and a 8v GTI. the GTI was "faster" due to the short gears. the econobox rabbit 8v went forever where the GTI 8v (same exact engine) was a mess at the same mileage
build something, then build it again when it wears out. who the fuck cares how many miles you got out of it? for fuck sake even domestic iron of that same vintage needed a top end at the same mileage. no matter which way you slice it old technology+modern demands = something is going to wear out _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Zed999 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018 Posts: 1241 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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Hmm, well I've had most stock engines in buses over the years, 1600,1700, 2000, a wasser crank 2020 and finally a 2.4L type-4 . To say a stocker beats all comers for low down torque just indicates ignorance unless your 1600 stocker has magically acquired 180ft/lb torque at 1800 rpm. My guess is I have two or (most likely nearer) three times the peak torque of a stock 1600 and down at 1800rpm, probably four times. 16,000 trouble free miles so far.
For a bus, bigger is better. I enjoyed driving my 1600 for sure, but 2.4L makes for a relaxing journey including getting up to speed on ramps and horror of horrors comfortably overtaking other vehicles where the 1600 would need a mile to get up to speed. I now look at 2L engines as a bit small and there's no way I'd consider having one. A 1600 should be in a beetle where it's just fine for everyday driving. |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6937 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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SGKent wrote: |
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly. |
This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.
There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.
Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.
What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch). _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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richparker wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly. |
This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.
There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.
Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.
What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch). |
Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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SGKent wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly. |
This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.
There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.
Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.
What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch). |
Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting. |
_________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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notchboy wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
keep in mind that Colin's buses get driven 20,000 miles a year sometimes while the big killer engines see 1,000 miles a year. Build accordingly. |
This is not entirely true. Yearly millage is strictly an individual thing. My 2175 sees 7-10k miles a year, it’s got power, reliability and produces great MPGs.
There’s nothing that says a “stock” engine is better then a “stroker.” It’s all about the quality of parts you choose and the builder you choose. Sure, I’ve had a stroker that blow up at 23,000, but Robbies “bone stock” 1600SP also needed to be rebuilt around the same millage. So... there’s nothing that says one is better then another, everyone’s experiences are different.
Skills is right, build what you want. If you drive it 20k a year and it lasts 4 years, great. If you drive it 1k and year and it lasts a lifetime, great.
What ever displacement size you choose, a stock 002 with a 5.37 R&P will work fine (just use a nice clutch). |
Rich - I have never seen a non-stock engine last nearly as long as a stock engine in a bus. People say they do then in conversion, "well I did replace the heads, or yes a stud pulled, or yes a cylinder was leaking compression etc.." As for Robbie's failed engine, I wasn't there, and I seem to remember some corners were cut. As I recall his original failure was a lifter broke due to a bad casting. |
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Little early in the mornig to be drinking already isn't it Notch? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Replace stock 1600sp or go bigger in my 70 camper? |
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notchboy wrote: |
Im feeling a little spry. |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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