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1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid
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jonpanic
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Hey everybody,

I have a little bit of a mutt bus, it's a 1977 with early and late bay sheet metal on the front and back. It's been a bit of a process to get it where it is, but it's almost ready to prep for paint.

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The engine runs pretty good, but I have dreams of long distance traveling and periodic maintenance. So I bought a 1993 Subaru locally that has around 250K miles and needs a top end refresh at the very least.

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I've researched the swap tirelessly and feel pretty good about it, considering I can take my time because the bus currently runs. Right now I'm currently gathering parts and getting ready to pull the motor.

I've found a second hand KEP engine adapter available, but it's for an 091 transmission with a 200mm flywheel. I was under the impression the 091 transmission only had a 228mm flywheel and clutch?

I'll keep updating this thread as I go, in the meantime I appreciate all your help.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Wow, this is going to sound bad and I’m no expert on engine swaps but I think the cost of an almost new Subaru engine is low enough that I wouldn’t even consider going to all that trouble for one that has 250k miles on it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Well, it get's complicated because I have to smog my bus. I spoke with a referee, and getting an OBDI bus smogged is much simpler than an OBDII, so finding a pre-1995 subaru legacy with low mileage is kind of tough. Also, this will be a learning opportunity (for better or for worse).
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jonpanic
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

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Well that was fun! Filled 3 tupperware bins full of odds and ends in case I ever want to mess with adding A/C but I'll definitely adding heat. Pulled way too much of the harness but I figured I'd better be safe than sorry. She'll be getting towed to the scrapyard soon.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

make sure you grab every sensor and electronic component. We had one a year or two ago on the forum where the OBDI would not work without the transmission sensors, and the referee said the user had to install them to pass. I think he finally gave up and sold the bus out of state.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

i think his best bet is to call KEP because they make a kit with CA's blessing.

not sure how one could pull this off with an air cooled, as the EO# (or whatever you guys call it) was for vanagon's originally. pretty sure if you use all of the KEP stuff they will walk you through the process
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
make sure you grab every sensor and electronic component. We had one a year or two ago on the forum where the OBDI would not work without the transmission sensors, and the referee said the user had to install them to pass. I think he finally gave up and sold the bus out of state.


Interesting. I'm going to call the ref today and I'll make sure to ask him about this. I'm a tenacious electronics nerd so I'm going to will this POS over the finish line.
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jonpanic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
i think his best bet is to call KEP because they make a kit with CA's blessing.

not sure how one could pull this off with an air cooled, as the EO# (or whatever you guys call it) was for vanagon's originally. pretty sure if you use all of the KEP stuff they will walk you through the process


I'll also talk to them about the executive order. A lot of things depend on the ref from my understanding. I need to call KEP to order some stuff soon so I'll chat with them. I'll keep this thread updated for anybody else going on this journey.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

it would be interesting to see if you can pull it off from the EPA/CARB standpoint.

no matter what, you'll have some "nuisance" codes but what they allow is beyond me...I think you'll have them for evap? I forget....

plus, I am not sure how you'll handle the CAT either. will be interesting to see if you can make it happen. if you do, it will open the doors for other swappers who have to be tested
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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jonpanic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Couldn't get in touch with anybody today due to the holiday. I'll update this thread tomorrow.
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jonpanic
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

I got in touch with the referee hotline. They told me the guidelines for engine swaps in CA are:

1) Engine must come from a newer vehicle.

2) Engine must be LARGER than the original.

I am going to be getting a call from an actual ref within a few days. That's when we'll have many more answers. In the meantime, here is a list of all the possible error codes for an OBDI EJ22:

http://www.4bc.org/vanagon/codes.html

The two tranny switches that I have to deal with are the parking and neutral switches. I am going to grab the original switches from the vehicle and will adapt them to the new transmission (even if I have to use some sort of microcontroller to simulate the inputs and outputs).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

This may shed some light on what years Kennedy covered
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/d-428-2.pdf

More research done by others
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=567098
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

If there was any room for refinement to this, I’m sure the vanagon guys would be all over this changing s things like engine size and donor years (I.e. 2.5L+, 96+ size, OBII, etc.). IMO it wasn’t intended for late AC baywindows.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Thanks for the great resources!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Just spoke with a ref and learned a lot.

Things that I want to mention:

- Although the smog cutoff is currently 1975 in CA, it's actually 1967 I believe. You aren't required to get your pre-75 vehicle smogged, but if a police officer suspects your vehicle has a swapped engine or is mechanically unsound, you can be forced to visit a smog ref. This is the first time I've heard of this.

- He recommends that I be a pioneer for getting an Executive Order for late bay busses here in CA. He recommended I talk to Kennedy Engineering about using their EO as a jumping point to discuss this with a person from CARB.

- He feels like this is worth pursuing, you could tell he had a fondness for AC VWs but knew they were hardly smog compliant when they were new. He thinks the CARB will be sympathetic to this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

jonpanic wrote:
Just spoke with a ref and learned a lot.

Things that I want to mention:

- Although the smog cutoff is currently 1975 in CA, it's actually 1967 I believe. You aren't required to get your pre-75 vehicle smogged, but if a police officer suspects your vehicle has a swapped engine or is mechanically unsound, you can be forced to visit a smog ref. This is the first time I've heard of this.

- He recommends that I be a pioneer for getting an Executive Order for late bay busses here in CA. He recommended I talk to Kennedy Engineering about using their EO as a jumping point to discuss this with a person from CARB.

- He feels like this is worth pursuing, you could tell he had a fondness for AC VWs but knew they were hardly smog compliant when they were new. He thinks the CARB will be sympathetic to this.


Been saying that but no one wants to listen (re 1967+). That said, it took almost 3 years to get an EO for the Magnaflow Catalytic that works on a late bay stock exhaust. AND I walked by the office of the CARB Secretary almost every day or bumped into her on Elevators, in the Cafeteria etc as part of my job at CalEPA. Recently retired. Good luck. That said, I softened them up a little for you with the catalytic. Wrote and delivered a research article to them on the issues a late bay has as part of trying to get some of these issues resolved. In five years I probably had 15 people contact me trying to get their buses past smog. You can do it easily if all the smog gear is there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Spoke with Kennedy on the phone today, and I have their permission to pursue an EO utilizing their equipment for Bay Window busses. I'll be calling the ARB this afternoon.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

you need to speak with another local VW mechanic in san diego, Markswagen. he has a LOT of insight on subaru swaps into vanagons and has done a lot of legwork on the swaps, and he has more contacts who have done the work to make their swaps cali legal.


his profile:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=449202
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

Stuartzickefoose wrote:
you need to speak with another local VW mechanic in san diego, Markswagen. he has a LOT of insight on subaru swaps into vanagons and has done a lot of legwork on the swaps, and he has more contacts who have done the work to make their swaps cali legal.


his profile:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=449202


Thanks for the heads up!

So the real issue, from what I'm discovering, is a rule change that took place last year. Because the Type 2 is considered a light duty truck, you can no longer swap in a passenger car motor, only another light truck motor. He said I could look for an engine from a Baja, because that was classified as a light duty truck, although I'd have to deal with OBDII headaches.

I have a few more calls to make.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: 1993 Subaru Swap in my Early/Late Bay Hybrid Reply with quote

jonpanic wrote:


Thanks for the heads up!

So the real issue, from what I'm discovering, is a rule change that took place last year. Because the Type 2 is considered a light duty truck, you can no longer swap in a passenger car motor, only another light truck motor. He said I could look for an engine from a Baja, because that was classified as a light duty truck, although I'd have to deal with OBDII headaches.

I have a few more calls to make.


good luck on that.

the Baja is like THE most desirable Subaru out there. a very short production run/sales have made this a cult classic. I had a customer walk away from one so I bought it, did the needed repairs and brought the thing up to 100% condition. I sold it for 15k in 39 hours.

sadly, I think the cards are stacked against you here. fuck CA
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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