Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ?

[Wellington]

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=711587

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=551286

This is a 1.8T running CCW, you will get the idea of what was required.
The transmission used is a 2wd Passat unit in the Vanagon, the transmission is running backwards with no ill effects.
There are a few of us running this set up, and it is awesome.
When the engine is running you would never detect a difference.
Flint Automotive in NY is the mastermind.

I know there was a Mexican transmission for the beetle with the watercooled bellhousing bolt patern, you are going Baja style.....source one of those transmissions.

Unless you are still determined to do a Subaru....

[Bugsy61]

You know there is a well laid out means of doing this, right? You install a bus transaxle and get a Kennedy engine adapter. They make an adapter for any engine you can think of, and can even give you recommendations on the cooling system. Success rate would be 10X more likely, because it has all been done many times before. https://www.kennedyeng.com/engine-adapters Just sayin'.

[Wellington]

success for a limited time.
The whole purpose was to enable a different transmission to be used.
Yup bolt up your bus box and run two or three times the horsepower through it and see how long it lasts.
Bolt up a 150 hp to a transmission that was geared for only 75hp and see how iefficient it is.
The idea was to run a matched set, engine and transmission.

[Krochus]

[saabmosare]

[saabmosare]

[modok]

It will work fine backward, the syncros and dog teeth, and reverse will work fine both directions. No problem.

What I don't know is if the thrust load being reversed will be ok.
On the pinion bearing.... I just don't know, out of my expertise. i know it will work but how long and how strong?

The main gear shaft thrust also a concern, which is easier to understand.
For instance very often you have a gear that sits against a shoulder on one side, a c-clip on the other side......and they make it so the thrust is usually against the shoulder......but you reverse it... and it's pushing against the c-clip....that can be trouble. Just example.
while the subaru gearbox is....."completely different", believe it or not, like people, and engines. the things are amazingly similar on the inside! No joke you take a subaru, a honda, and a VW trans apart and pour it in a pile they all look the same. Which is why..... I fail to see the allure of swapping
But......yeah actually the subaru boxes are quite amazing. I was just talking with my brother about that. It might be the best part of the subaru.

[oprn]

Maybe you see the worst failures Modoc in your line of work but in my limited experience the engines are not that shabby. My cousin has a 2000 Forester N/A with 500K km on it and still running well, we have a 2000 Forester turbo with 250K km and running sweet. Neither engine has been opened up for anything yet.

I have never heard of an air cooled VW engine with that kind of longevity. Some of the VW water pumpers approach that, mostly the diesels though.

[modok]

Well yeah, in the category of 2500$ disposable 160hp transportation appliances the subaru longblock is....in that category, tho it isn't the best of that category.
It has the low hood height which is nice, tho in a rear mounted application that only helps in reverse, so, whoop de frekin do

[oprn]

You sound bitter enough to be a full time Subaru mechanic!

A buddy of mine worked in a GM dealership and told me all the horror stories about how bad GM trucks were. He sure would never own one! I have been given GM trucks by my employer to run now for over 20 years and over 2 million miles. I can easily count on one hand how many times I have been left on the side of the road.

Is your opinion bases on some deficiency or just the fact the you only see the ones that have failed? The reason I am asking is that my wife's Forester has just been hit from behind and is considered a total loss. I am debating letting it go or keeping that 2.0 L 246hp engine for a project. It runs so good, uses 1 liter of oil every 5000 miles and pulls hard!

I have a '69 bay window waiting in the wings...

[modok]

It's all about expectations of the enthusiasts, not the engine itself.
lemme put it this way, If it was a porsche, people would expect that if you overheat it it's ruined, and rebuilding or souping it up to be difficult and expensive, because.... porsche people think porsche engines are special. But, the engines are kinda all the same. A porsche engine is no easier or more difficult to deal with than a subaru.
It's the people that are special.


But, reminding me of my bitterness...... buddy you gave me a very clever idea.
If you want a watercooled engine and a subaru trans, ok sure,... USE A HONDA, because....they already turn backward!!! So, I am crediting this idea to you

[oprn]

Hmmm...

We should start a list of engines of interest and which direction they run.

[modok]

Most of the more famous older hondas are reverse, from the renowned B18 to the mythical G23, reverse!

the K series are normal rotation

[oprn]

The Corvair engine is the only one that comes to mind for me.

Mind you I haven't checked that Wisconsin but I believe you would disqualify that one on the "of interest" basis!

[oprn]

Modoc, last night I had a long conversation with a autocross/ice racer who has some Subi experience and seen a lot of them on the track. He also is not a big fan of them. Says the N/A ones are nearly bullet proof but the turboed ones tend to shed connecting rods. His opinion though is it is mostly due to lack of maintenance and no respect on the throttle.

[saabmosare]

I came to a conclusion recently on how to solve my problem. I'll list them all here, and in the initial post for others to follow if you have the same issues.

I'll pick one of the following combinations for my purpose. They both offer a great and reliable engine and a very affordable price/performance ratio. Engine and gearbox are already mounted so no adapters needed. The only issue is the RBGs, but I don't think it will be any major issues while I anyway will rebuild the IRS. So better do all changes at one place instead of everywhere.

Will use one of those setups:
VW 1,9 TDI PD engine with longitudinal mounted gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Subaru EJ20 engine with 5MT Gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Both setups can be manual or automatic, haven't decided what to choose for myself yet. Depend on what shows up for sale I guess.

Pros and cons VW
A lot of torque and low HP. Perfect for insurance and tax purposes since they don't care about the torque while I do. Low fuel consumption and considered a great engine for longevity. Higher centre of mass than the Subaru engine so will be more unstable in corners.

Pros and cons Subaru
Boxer engine with a low mass centre. Will handle great in an old car and give it great handling. High revs and great sound. Decent torque for a petrol engine. Considered a great engine that lasts very long.

Other ways to solve it
Some other ways to solve the issues I found but decided to not follow.
Reverse rotation on the engine. VAG 1,8T seams to be okay, I haven't found anything that says it won't be possible on the Subaru EJ20 engine either. My concern is spinning the gearbox the wrong direction in the long run. If the engine was not a tail engine it's important to keep the crank rotation in the opposite direction compared to the wheels to make the car stay stable.

Flipping a gearbox upsidedown. Seams not too complicated but will change the mounting of the engine to a lower stance, not something I'm too keen on. The gearboxes seem to handle it well, keep in mind that new vent and so on is needed, and you probably need to find a new oil level based on your setup.

RBGs for obvious reasons, thanks for the suggestion guys! This helped me a lot. Both the 1,26 and 1,40 would be okay for my application.

[Tom_Kathleen]

We have a Subaru engine in a Manx buggy. When we got the engine from Outback (now Outfront) Motorsports, they said never turn the engine backwards, because the cam belts would slip and loose timing causing the valves to hit the pistons. Tom
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Manxter #16, 1968 Meyers Manx & Kick-Out SS #16 (WIP)
Manx Club & CVA

[gprudenciop]

If you want to run a subaru engine just do what I did and buy a reversed rotation transmission/ring and pinion kit from subarugears.com and you are done. 5 speed and and goes with the engine so no adapters.
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Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness..

[lelef]

revers rotation of a Subaru engine should not be very easy ,thinking about it is simple but during the work you will find problems problems and problems that means a lot of money
use the stock Subaru EFI could not be more practical than a complete new system like Megasquirt
Is not so easy work on a Subaru engine and parts are expensive
The 002 bus transaxle is strong, probably the 092 is also better and are both able to handle the Subaru hp but is needed to flip them for reverse rotation
Mid engine ? std gearbox and std engine

But really today with less money you can built a powerful air cooled engine with also a lot less problems

[theDrew]

years ago, I remember some dude on the Vanagon forum doing a reversed rotation engine. He got it working, but he had to do some pretty crazy things to make it all work. Maybe I can find the thread.

Definitely not easy, but can it be done, sure! anythings possible with enough time, determination and money
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Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25