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1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding
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Tall Bloke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

laneven28 wrote:
I have an unrestored May 1959 Cognac coupe that doesn't have a dash pad, and can't see any evidence it ever had one.

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I can't see clearly in that photo, but if you have the vinyl covers on the A pillars, then it would have had a dash pad which would of used adhesive bonding it to the metal panel, the later 59's also used a clamping strip to secure the dash pad.

The metal work change on the dash happened approx. end Nov.58, the dash pads were introduced at the same as the padded sun visor (mid Jan 59).

My Dec 58 car, has the metal work change on the dash, but has the solid plastic sun visors - (sun visor arms have the "notch") but the later padded waffle visor mirror arms do not have this "notch"- I am lead to believe.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

in accordance with my database the new dashboard arrives at the end of November 58.

For the dash pad and the metal strip see VW document below

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

Loren wrote:
My original May 12, 1959 build lowlight has a dash pad

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Loren, do you mind sharing the first 4 digits of your vin? I find it interesting that your Ghia was built May 12, 1959 and clearly has the retaining vent plates and retaining strip on the bottom edge of the dash. The data posted by GHIA shows that July 6,1959 was the start of the retaining vent plates and retaining strip at lower edge.
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crazy tarzan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

For fun, here’s a shot of my feb 58 dash (though it has some weld marks showing from trunk side so may be suspect).

Feb 1958 dash
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McFunzeepants
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

Does the sheet metal pressing / embossment look right around the non-correct front fender badge? Or is it just the badge that's off?
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Loren Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

Lisa, my 59 Ghia vin starts with 2400... The build date of May 12, 1959 is according to the birth certificate I ordered from VW.
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Douglas Denlinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

I looked this car over at Gooding, couldn't stay for the bidding, so thanks for posting the results. There were several paint repairs that were blatantly obvious, even in the poorly lit corner where it was displayed. Would have been nice to have the engine lid open to inspect the engine. Also would have nice to know "WHEN" the engine was mated with the car, documentation. Description was less than revealing.
Yes many wrong details, if I remember this car was restored 20/25 years ago for a TN collector who has been selling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

Douglas Denlinger wrote:
I looked this car over at Gooding, couldn't stay for the bidding, so thanks for posting the results. There were several paint repairs that were blatantly obvious, even in the poorly lit corner where it was displayed. Would have been nice to have the engine lid open to inspect the engine. Also would have nice to know "WHEN" the engine was mated with the car, documentation. Description was less than revealing.
Yes many wrong details, if I remember this car was restored 20/25 years ago for a TN collector who has been selling.

"Would have been nice" is the understatement of the young year!

I find it absolutely shocking that bidders weren't able to personally inspect that portion of the Ghia that essentially doubled its value.
Judging by the level of bidding, though, there apparently were at least a few people willing to gamble on what they only saw photos of.


So is the Denzel performance set-up really better than any of the more readily available vintage speed set-ups such as Okrassa, Judson, etc., or is it just the rarity of the Denzel engine that makes it so desirable?

How does the performance of the best vintage speed set-ups for a Type I VW engine compare with that of a Porsche stock 356 or Super 90 engine?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding Reply with quote

KGCoupe wrote:
Douglas Denlinger wrote:
I looked this car over at Gooding, couldn't stay for the bidding, so thanks for posting the results. There were several paint repairs that were blatantly obvious, even in the poorly lit corner where it was displayed. Would have been nice to have the engine lid open to inspect the engine. Also would have nice to know "WHEN" the engine was mated with the car, documentation. Description was less than revealing.
Yes many wrong details, if I remember this car was restored 20/25 years ago for a TN collector who has been selling.

"Would have been nice" is the understatement of the young year!

I find it absolutely shocking that bidders weren't able to personally inspect that portion of the Ghia that essentially doubled its value.
Judging by the level of bidding, though, there apparently were at least a few people willing to gamble on what they only saw photos of.


So is the Denzel performance set-up really better than any of the more readily available vintage speed set-ups such as Okrassa, Judson, etc., or is it just the rarity of the Denzel engine that makes it so desirable?

How does the performance of the best vintage speed set-ups for a Type I VW engine compare with that of a Porsche stock 356 or Super 90 engine?


I doubt that actual performance is the issue. You could get similar HP out of a well built 1600 dual port.
Porsche engines from the time were 60hp 75hp and I think they had the Super 90hp by then, so more than a Denzel.
There is a lot of speculation on the value of the Denzel and if the person who Bought the car even knows about the history of Denzel or its significance. It would be funny if it turns out they bought the car because they needed the engine for a Denzel body!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

I've edited the thread title to include "Denzel" as it might catch the eye of someone who knows the history of the car.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

HOT VW's October 02..

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

theghiagirl wrote:
Loren wrote:
My original May 12, 1959 build lowlight has a dash pad

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Loren, do you mind sharing the first 4 digits of your vin? I find it interesting that your Ghia was built May 12, 1959 and clearly has the retaining vent plates and retaining strip on the bottom edge of the dash. The data posted by GHIA shows that July 6,1959 was the start of the retaining vent plates and retaining strip at lower edge.


Surprising my June '59 does not have the retaining vent plates or edge strip that Loren's earlier Ghia has.
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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aerosilver
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

aerosilver wrote:
Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page)

I don't have a FB account, but Google helped me find the JustKampers website.
Although I found no mention there yet of the Denzel powered Karmann Ghia, there was this link to an interesting story about how they picked up a historic OG Okrasa engine with the intent of installing it in a 1956 Oval to be entered in the 2017 Mille Miglia Rally.

It turns out they wisely had a newly built copy of that OG Okrasa engine made to preserve the actual "historically important" original, as they didn't want to be responsible for inadvertantly damaging it during the race.
More to the point, they go on to explain the reason they feel the original was "historically important" ...

JustKampers wrote:
...
The original engine was built to settle a dispute between two old friends about whos car was faster: A pre-a Porsche 356, or a VW Beetle fitted with an Okrasa race engine and ancillaries. The pair got their cars in order, and then hired out the Nurburgring for the day so that they could race and settle the bet.

When it was all over, the Beetle with the Okrasa engine was the winner! We’ve got a copy of the magazine article detailing the whole race here at JK HQ, and it’s a really interesting read (once you’ve translated it from German).
...


A PDF copy of that August 1989 Motor Klassik article is then thoughtfully embedded in the JustKampers article.

That article coincidentally provides a very interesting answer to my earlier question of how a vintage speed equipped Type I VW might compare to a Porsche 356 from the same era.
It also makes it clear that the staff of JustKampers has a keen interest in vintage speed equipment made for Volkswagen engines.
From that fact, we might conclude that getting their hands on the Denzel engine was the primary reason that they paid so much for a lowlight coupe with so many "incorrect" details.
It also begs the question of whether or not they intend to enter that Denzel powered Karmann Ghia in the next running of the Mille Miglia or another similar rally.
Think
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

KGCoupe wrote:
aerosilver wrote:
Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page)

I don't have a FB account, but Google helped me find the JustKampers website.
Although I found no mention there yet of the Denzel powered Karmann Ghia, there was this link to an interesting story about how they picked up a historic OG Okrasa engine with the intent of installing it in a 1956 Oval to be entered in the 2017 Mille Miglia Rally.

It turns out they wisely had a newly built copy of that OG Okrasa engine made to preserve the actual "historically important" original, as they didn't want to be responsible for inadvertantly damaging it during the race.
More to the point, they go on to explain the reason they feel the original was "historically important" ...

JustKampers wrote:
...
The original engine was built to settle a dispute between two old friends about whos car was faster: A pre-a Porsche 356, or a VW Beetle fitted with an Okrasa race engine and ancillaries. The pair got their cars in order, and then hired out the Nurburgring for the day so that they could race and settle the bet.

When it was all over, the Beetle with the Okrasa engine was the winner! We’ve got a copy of the magazine article detailing the whole race here at JK HQ, and it’s a really interesting read (once you’ve translated it from German).
...


A PDF copy of that August 1989 Motor Klassik article is then thoughtfully embedded in the JustKampers article.

That article coincidentally provides a very interesting answer to my earlier question of how a vintage speed equipped Type I VW might compare to a Porsche 356 from the same era.
It also makes it clear that the staff of JustKampers has a keen interest in vintage speed equipment made for Volkswagen engines.
From that fact, we might conclude that getting their hands on the Denzel engine was the primary reason that they paid so much for a lowlight coupe with so many "incorrect" details.
It also begs the question of whether or not they intend to enter that Denzel powered Karmann Ghia in the next running of the Mille Miglia or another similar rally.
Think


If anyone find that article post a link.
A Pre A could have came with an anemic 1200cc engine I believe. I think you had the option of that and the 1300 and maybe 1500?
I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

aerosilver wrote:
Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page)


Was Old Bug really trying to sell that car for $180k?
The FB page said they got it for a third less than what Randy was asking.
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1956 Ghia
1969 Ghia Convertible
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 crusty double cab
1960 convertible bug
1963 356 B coupe runner
1963 356 B coupe
1962 356 B Coupe
1967 21 window rust bucket
1967 912
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KGCoupe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:

If anyone find that article post a link.
A Pre A could have came with an anemic 1200cc engine I believe. I think you had the option of that and the 1300 and maybe 1500?
I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle.

As I mentioned, a PDF of that Motor Klassiks article can be seen in the JustKampers.com article that I provided the link for above.

Here is a more direct link to that same PDF version of the Motor Klassiks August 1989 article ...

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https:...d-Test.pdf

Considering the fact that these Denzel engine parts are listed for sale right here on The Samba for $11k ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1990234 ... it seems reasonable that a complete running Denzel engine may be worth more than twice as much.
But then again those same Denzel parts have been listed for sale here for over two years now, so they obviously aren't any great bargain. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
aerosilver wrote:
Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page)


Was Old Bug really trying to sell that car for $180k?
The FB page said they got it for a third less than what Randy was asking.


It was $85K on the oldbug site, I posted the link on page 1.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle.


I've driven a '52 356 but only for maybe 1/2 a mile.
It was on sort of crappy roads but it seemed to drive fine to me.
I'm pretty sure the owner had it in top mechanical condition.

I can't recall if it drove better or worse than an Oval.
I did own and drive an Oval for 6-12 months a very long time ago, I remember it driving fine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding Reply with quote

Started reading the article, thanks for the link.
Pretty cool, the real Mr Okrassa and one of the key early Porsche guys, so no doubt they knew what they were doing.
The Porsche had a 1300 version, rated at 45PS, the Okrasa engine about the same.
i bet a Ghia with an Okrasa would leave both of them in the dust!
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My retirement plan:
1956 Ghia
1969 Ghia Convertible
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 crusty double cab
1960 convertible bug
1963 356 B coupe runner
1963 356 B coupe
1962 356 B Coupe
1967 21 window rust bucket
1967 912
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