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Frederik
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 578
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
I'm officially done installing non NOS German made Bosch points. Their entry level 01011 points made in Mexico faces line up nicely. However, I discovered on another set in a customers distributor that the point arm that moves open/closed is on a rubber bushing. It was very sloppy on this set of not very old points. I caught it on my Sun distributor machine.
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Interesting
I've seen this on pictures of new South American Bosch points that the pivot shaft bushing looks "messy". The bushing is one of the things I like about German Bosch points. They are top quality. Compared to most other brands they are molded in place on the points arm that also have small support tabs pressed in the metal. The color is more grafite grey than black.
This are 01001 style points but the others looks the same. From the left: 1) German points from when they used number/letter part #, 2) and 3) later but Still old German points (this is the ones I like the most), 4) made in Spain points (Still good quality but the bushing molding have changed some) and 5) bremi, old NOS.
The bremi, beru and most other makes has a bushing that is not molded in the arm but a separate part pushed/ pressed in. In old used ones they sometimes are very loose. I don't think this is a problem as most of them anyway are worn down and time to replace at this stage. But it shows the quality of the old german Bosch. They were built to not fail.
(Don't mind the arrow, it points to a wear on the bushing)
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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The Mexican made 01011 Bosch points pivot was a rubber material vs. nylon or whatever Bosch Germany used. It was very sloppy at the pivot and had far too much play. My Sun distributor machine went wonky on the dwell where the lopes were firing. I'd never seen that before.
The new Bosch 01011 Mexican points faces line up nicely but.. the base contact is riveted on vs. the better quality versions. I mounted many of these Mexican points and ran them on my machine. They were solid. Clearly, they are an economy level points.
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Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
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**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
I'm officially done installing non NOS German made Bosch points. Their entry level 01011 points made in Mexico faces line up nicely. However, I discovered on another set in a customers distributor that the point arm that moves open/closed is on a rubber bushing. It was very sloppy on this set of not very old points. I caught it on my Sun distributor machine.
I'd also bought Bosch's highest quality 01011 points. The points faces are WAY off from aligning correctly. I had to take them apart to bend things so the faces lined up correctly.
I'm using another brand now that are much better quality.
Also, since this thread mentioned a few different brands of points over the years, I'll add some pictures of a few of these points sets for the record.
The first set is a Blue Streak set of premium points. They are almost new. The have the hole in the middle of the base face.
This is a Sorenson "cross-cut" set of points with a + cut across the faces. The cuts are to provide ventilation for the points faces. I think Wildthings suggested it was to help the points to not develop a pit or nipple on the face.
I've started to take a closer look at the used points that I've taken out of core distributors while I'm restoring them. It's kind of interesting to go back in time and find these long NLA sets and brands of points mounted on distributors that haven't been used for decades. |
Have you read this thread and looked at the pictorial?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659700&highlight=blue+streak
I quit using Points ages ago...but quit using Bosch points...decades ago. Even when they were at their best...they were low grade compared to Blue Streak and several of the other Standard Ignition Products points.
Yes...the hole in the blue streak points and other SMP models...are exactly for preventing the high spot and work superbly. I have used the Sorenson points long ago (not on my VW).
They looked like they were built by Borg Warner. The cross point does not have anything to do with heat control. Its missing metal...just like the hole in the Blue streak...but less effective. Where the metal is missing...a high spot cannot develop.
There are plenty of better than Bosch points available still...mostly SMP and mostly from NAPA.
Ray |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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Yup, I'm buying SMP points now. I actually found some new NOS 01011 bluestreak points. I don't want to get excited until they arrive though.
I saw that other thread Ray. Nice job adding so much excellent, detailed info. I'm kind of geeking out on these tune up parts currently. As I mentioned, I've had fun looking through my old cores from a oldtimer who stripped VW's for decades. Many of these distributors had their original VW tune up parts mounted. Bosch Germany condensers, rotor's and caps. Other distributors have had many of these old brands of tune up parts mounted. Some also had the very rare brown bakelite caps 1235522183-1139052074A on them. I found many of the 03010 caps with Germany and Bosch on top of the caps. Tons of rotors with Bosch/Germany on them.
Yesterday I was going through more 1965-1967 distributors and found two almost new blue streak points mounted. I will mount one in my 67 bug.
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Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
Yup, I'm buying SMP points now. I actually found some new NOS 01011 bluestreak points. I don't want to get excited until they arrive though.
I saw that other thread Ray. Nice job adding so much excellent, detailed info. I'm kind of geeking out on these tune up parts currently. As I mentioned, I've had fun looking through my old cores from a oldtimer who stripped VW's for decades. Many of these distributors had their original VW tune up parts mounted. Bosch Germany condensers, rotor's and caps. Other distributors have had many of these old brands of tune up parts mounted. Some also had the very rare brown bakelite caps 1235522183-1139052074A on them. I found many of the 03010 caps with Germany and Bosch on top of the caps. Tons of rotors with Bosch/Germany on them.
Yesterday I was going through more 1965-1967 distributors and found two almost new blue streak points mounted. I will mount one in my 67 bug. |
As I noted....I do not use points wherever I can get away with it. However I like the ability to use points not inly when necessary but for cars that really need to ....or just like to be.....factory correct. But correct or not....they need to run RIGHT....right?
I noted in that other thread as everyone has in this one.....that Bosch points have been on a quality roller coaster since the late 80s. And they are not the only ones.....so I'm not just poking at Bosch.
As Glenn noted.....he has never seen a set of points that have "failed". Well at some level that is true.....except for those that had the rubbing block cracking off problem (which I have never had in my own car but have experienced with other peoples cars).....but it also depends on what you are driving and what its specs are.....and what you consider a "failure".
I had far too many Bosch points during one period of time......that were junk in the box and unusable as I mentioned in that thread. To be fair....I had Borg Warner points that sucked so bad they were unusable as well.
As you noted.....the really crappy points can cause your distributor machine to go haywire. Back in the day.....on my D-jet injected car that had to run over 1k miles per week at 70mph highway speeds.....poorly made/aligned points that otherwise could not be said to have actually failed....made for very poor idling, acceleration and fuel mileage. Its something the average vw owner may not notice on say a basic stock1600 with a center mount pict 3....until it got really bad. But on a highly tuned, higher compression engine.....its very noticable. Ray |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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I think the good news here is that NOS quality points (pick the brand) are still out there in quantity, especially the Bosch NOS German made ones. I have enough NOS ignition parts in my personal stash for my life time.
It's no wonder most manufactures are stopping production of these ignition parts. Most VW owners only are putting a couple thousand miles a year if not less on them. They've become garage queens and only come out in nice weather on the weekends. Yes, there's some hardcore daily drivers but they are the very small minority.
Couple this with electronic modules and we're lucky that companies are even making points these days. I'm going to always be that grumpy older VW purist who will never convert away from points. I don't mind the 15 minutes once a year to check my points gap, dwell and timing. Wiping off the old, contaminated grease off the points cam and applying new. To me, it's part of the charm in owning these now 50 year old classics.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
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Frederik
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 578
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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Add to this that the demand isn't for high quality points. I would guess that if Bosch made a $15 top quality version of their points people would still buy the $6.50 crappy points and complain. I think this is also a factor why we to day are left with crappy low cost points. And other crappy parts.
I have German Bosch points and are selling some but the demand isn't that big for them. Ok shipping and some other factors might be added to the equation but there are a lot other selling German Bosch parts out there if one only wants them. For me I can just keep them in my collection but I understand why a vendor would probably switch to a cheaper option. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76911
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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| Frederik wrote: |
| I would guess that if Bosch made a $15 top quality version of their points people would still buy the $6.50 crappy points and complain. |
It's been this way as far back as I can remember.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Frederik wrote: |
| I would guess that if Bosch made a $15 top quality version of their points people would still buy the $6.50 crappy points and complain. |
It's been this way as far back as I can remember. |
Exactly. Some people only see the price when shopping for parts. They then wonder why their VW runs terrible with all the aftermarket, third world junk parts mounted on it.
It is nice though that the folks who really love their VW and WANT it to run like it did when delivered new, will step up and spend the money to get the correct part/s.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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I found a few sets of these brand new Blue streaks recently. I'm wondering if they also went NLA? Ray would know I'd imagine.
The build quality is very nice. You can tell the spring is much stiffer than say a stock 01011 Bosch points set.
Interesting that one of the boxes says made in the USA while the others say Mexico. There standard points are all made in Mexico according to their boxes.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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I’m sorry if this is somewhere in this thread and I missed it, but can someone post the part #s for NAPA/Standard/Blue Streak points for an 009?
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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Read through my link to a points post with a comparison pictorial I made a few posts back. All of the current NAPA parts numbers are listed.
Blue streak points.....are no lomger made.....but.....since ablue streak was made by Standard ignition products (SMP).......as I noted...they have made several "classes" of points over tbe years. Some of the have most of the worthwhile attributes of the blue streak points and were/ provided for sale by NAPA under several brand names.
The NAPA/Echlin ECH 313P.....is the NAPA version of the SMP "T" series...which is one Borg,Warner style arm and pivot construction but has the extra copper conductor and the cented electrode.
There is also the NAPA MPE CS313SB....which is a straight across SMP "T" series. Still better than basic Bosch. Copper arm, larger tungsten contacts, heavily bushed pivot.
Here is that thread again:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659700&highlight=blue+streak
Ray |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Failing Bosch Points |
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These just came in the mail for me. Hopefully they last.
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