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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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Now don't go takin my thoughts on jets as gospel. Distributors are where I'm knowledeable. Jets were made in all kinds of sizes for good reasons. I run other than stock jets in my two buses because I live and mostly drive at 7,000 feet and higher in altitude. Can't remember what jets I'm using.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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BarryL 
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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Is idle jet you guys are talking about = pilot jet?
Try setting your choke rotation colder. Rotate the ceramic disc anti-clockwise a notch +. Turn the throttle adjuster screw one turn clockwise. Try again. |
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Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2206
Location: UK (South)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| Is idle jet you guys are talking about = pilot jet? |
From my perspective yes.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| tasb wrote: |
A Bus with Ghia jets in the carburetor will start may even run ok. I'd be willing to bet that most carburetors have the wrong jet applications in them currently. We are just trying to get you dialed in the first time to save you some time and money and some space on this website  |
i know! that crossed my mind the other day ive probably got the samba servers overheating with all the pictures and videos im posting   but hopefully this wont be a regular thing hopefully like you said we'll get it dialed in and be good to go then id expect my posts to become more spaced out
| Who.Me? wrote: |
| slightly more ethanol-containing fuel needs to be burned to do the same amount of work as pure petrol. Bigger jets can supply slightly more fuel. |
after i had responded i remembered someone earlier in the thread was having me take the pilot jet entirely out and just plugging the hole with my finger would that have substituted for a larger jet opening?
| Who.Me? wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| Is idle jet you guys are talking about = pilot jet? |
from my perspective yes. |
haha thank you for asking this BarryL i was kinda worried to ask again
| BarryL wrote: |
| Try setting your choke rotation colder. Rotate the ceramic disc anti-clockwise a notch +. Turn the throttle adjuster screw one turn clockwise. Try again. |
so the throttle adjuster should just barley touch the last step of that cammed plate thing right so ill turn it 1 complete turn clockwise from that starting point, and i adjusted the choke to the middle notch then to the very bottom of the third notch and still reacting the same.
it psyched me out though cause when i tried to start it kicked right on but it died again i guess i had pumped some gas in there making those adjustments  |
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Culito
11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5865
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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Here's a fun thing you can try:
Get the engine running, pump the throttle so you get some good rpm's going (get it revved up pretty good), then slam your hand over the carb throat until it dies.
It may take a few tries to get it started up again.
I call this the "hillbilly carb clean method".
Your carb is most likely already clean but it's free to try!
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| flendershirebu wrote: |
| after i had responded i remembered someone earlier in the thread was having me take the pilot jet entirely out and just plugging the hole with my finger would that have substituted for a larger jet opening? |
It's just to try and verify that in fact you can get some fuel to suck into the idle circuit.
Your idle circuit is not delivering fuel.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| Turn the throttle adjuster screw one turn clockwise. |
so the throttle adjuster should just barley touch the last step of that cammed plate thing right so ill turn it 1 complete turn clockwise from that starting point |
No. I was just trying to get the idle up higher. Turn it in two more whole turns for now. It might be all that is wrong is your throttle position is too far closed but for now try what I wrote if you can.
Did you back the idle mixture out to 3 turns out? |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
Your idle circuit is not delivering fuel.
Turn it in two more whole turns for now.
Did you back the idle mixture out to 3 turns out? |
yeah so the idle mixture is out 3 turns and the throttle adjustment is in 3 turns as well and the spring thats on it is pretty compressed
| Culito wrote: |
| Get the engine running, pump the throttle so you get some good rpm's going (get it revved up pretty good), then slam your hand over the carb throat until it dies. |
someone suggested this before but i just gave it three good tries again but still the same result
are we all agreed that the ghia carb is my next best bet to try to get it running? if so ill try getting in touch with him if there's nothing else to try. also i found this carb, idk if its any more or less appealing though. its pretty dirty but regardless of which one i get id probably clean it the same way i have the one i have now
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2257811
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2209171 |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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Without having either of those in my hands it is hard to tell by pictures if they have a worn throttle shaft. Judging by the screws top-to-bottom neither has had much disassembly so that could be good. The new one you posted is not set up for the type spring you have but you could use your top and throttle arm on it. The Ghia one looks like maybe there was a fire at the top for a just a moment but even so it isn't bad.
I'd love to send you a known good carb off a spare engine I have and ship it round trip but you'd still be in the same boat. All it will prove is that you need or don't need a carb that idles. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| The Ghia one looks like maybe there was a fire at the top for a just a moment but even so it isn't bad. |
i guess i figured that black stuff would scrub off if i dunked it in that berymens chem-dip i got. my carb had some similar black build up on the butterfly flap that came off after i had dunked it
| BarryL wrote: |
| I'd love to send you a known good carb off a spare engine I have and ship it round trip but you'd still be in the same boat. All it will prove is that you need or don't need a carb that idles. |
that'd be awesome! id love to cross the carb off as the problem (even though if it isnt the carb i have no idea where else to go) but idk what round trip shipping from california to virginia would be but do you think itd be any cheaper than me just buying one of those? |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| flendershirebu wrote: |
| that'd be awesome! id love to cross the carb off as the problem (even though if it isnt the carb i have no idea where else to go) but idk what round trip shipping from california to virginia would be but do you think itd be any cheaper than me just buying one of those? |
It would be more. I was going to pay for it myself but I think this can be solved easier.
Start looking for vacuum leaks at the idle, meaning is the shaft holes worn a lot on the throttle area, is the carb gasket a good seal, are you sure the pilot jet is seating, are you sure the pilot jet is getting fuel, look look test test, find a little bolt to plug the vacuum advance off. Are you sure the power wire to the coil is giving power at idle?
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| the ad says... power fuel system. |
Btw your carb has the power fuel system without the ball also. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| Start looking for vacuum leaks at the idle, meaning is the shaft holes worn a lot on the throttle area |
i can hear it click back and forth when i wiggle it but its very hard to see it moving so i was assuming it wasnt enough to affect anything
| BarryL wrote: |
| is the carb gasket a good seal |
it probably was when we started but now its probably been off and back on like 4 times
| BarryL wrote: |
| are you sure the pilot jet is seating, are you sure the pilot jet is getting fuel |
im never sure about alot of things but theoretically it should be getting fuel just based of how thoroughly ive cleaned it. same with the seating im not sure but i dont know why it wouldn't be seated properly
| BarryL wrote: |
| find a little bolt to plug the vacuum advance off |
ok check. would the diaphragm in the canister attached to the distributor be a suspect because thats something i haven't replaced (we've double checked by having me suck on the tube and it holding that vacuum so i dont think its leaking)
| BarryL wrote: |
| Are you sure the power wire to the coil is giving power at idle? |
this is kinda a catch 22 isnt it? it has to idle for me to be able to test the power it gets while its idling
| BarryL wrote: |
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| the ad says... power fuel system. |
Btw your carb has the power fuel system without the ball also. |
oh like i said im new to this scene. still learning |
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Culito
11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5865
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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I'd just buy that carb. Maybe if you link to this thread you can get a discount.
It never hurts to have a spare.
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| Are you sure the power wire to the coil is giving power at idle? |
this is kinda a catch 22 isnt it? it has to idle for me to be able to test the power it gets while its idling |
I just meant make sure the power to the coil is constant until you unclip it or however you have it hooked up.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| find a little bolt to plug the vacuum advance off |
ok check. would the diaphragm in the canister attached to the distributor be a suspect because thats something i haven't replaced (we've double checked by having me suck on the tube and it holding that vacuum so i dont think its leaking) |
Canister is fine so far.
I'm talking about plugging off the the little hose as it leaves the carb so you can be sure there isn't a leak. Yes you're right but this will eliminate any doubt. A little rubber cap over the carb vacuum tube is all you need.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| is the carb gasket a good seal |
it probably was when we started but now its probably been off and back on like 4 times |
Put on two if you have them for now or just make sure the mating flanges are flat.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| are you sure the pilot jet is seating, are you sure the pilot jet is getting fuel |
im never sure about alot of things but theoretically it should be getting fuel just based of how thoroughly ive cleaned it. same with the seating im not sure but i dont know why it wouldn't be seated properly |
On this picture the little diagonal passage with the up white arrow that connects the pilot chamber to the fuel is where I'm concerned.
Make sure the pilot jet housing doesn't have a crack.
In this picture is your main jet tight in the brass holder nut?
When you remove the brass holder drain nut does a lot of gas come out?
Make sure the carb top gasket has all the holes punched out. Sometimes they are still filled with the gasket material.
Make sure the top carb part is flat and sealing all around.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| so the throttle adjuster should just barley touch the last step of that cammed plate thing right |
No and yes. Yes the last step with the choke fully off. No the final "touching" is based on idle rpm. I fear you have your idle rpm at zero or fully closed.
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| i know! that crossed my mind the other day ive probably got the samba servers overheating with all the pictures and videos im posting but hopefully this wont be a regular thing hopefully like you said we'll get it dialed in and be good to go then id expect my posts to become more spaced out |
Actually I can't believe how you've stuck with it and how together it seems your tools and work area and willingness to learn are plus it appears you already know a lot. I even thought that maybe this was a prank test like Candid Camera was in the past. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| I just meant make sure the power to the coil is constant until you unclip it or however you have it hooked up. |
how should i test this ?
| BarryL wrote: |
| 'm talking about plugging off the the little hose as it leaves the carb so you can be sure there isn't a leak. Yes you're right but this will eliminate any doubt. A little rubber cap over the carb vacuum tube is all you need. |
oh ok ill try to find something to plug it
| BarryL wrote: |
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| is the carb gasket a good seal |
it probably was when we started but now its probably been off and back on like 4 times |
Put on two if you have them for now or just make sure the mating flanges are flat. |
the only other one i have is the original that came off this one but i didnt notice any warped surfaces when i had it apart
| BarryL wrote: |
On this picture the little diagonal passage with the up white arrow that connects the pilot chamber to the fuel is where I'm concerned.
Make sure the pilot jet housing doesn't have a crack. |
you mean where its screwed into because i didnt see a crack. idk how i could check that passage even if i stuck wire in there i dont think i could work it into there
| BarryL wrote: |
In this picture is your main jet tight in the brass holder nut?
When you remove the brass holder drain nut does a lot of gas come out? |
ive got it snugged but not as tight as possible. last time i drained it through that plug i caught what i could with the top part of a waterbottle and i thought it looked about the amount that i would expect to sit inside the bowl
| BarryL wrote: |
| Make sure the carb top gasket has all the holes punched out. Sometimes they are still filled with the gasket material. |
each hole in the top of the carb has a hole in the gasket
| BarryL wrote: |
| Make sure the top carb part is flat and sealing all around. |
so to check how flat it was i took the gasket off and just placed the top on then looked for anything that looked warped and i didnt see anything i would imagine to be out of the ordinary
| flendershirebu wrote: |
| so the throttle adjuster should just barley touch the last step of that cammed plate thing right |
No and yes. Yes the last step with the choke fully off. No the final "touching" is based on idle rpm. I fear you have your idle rpm at zero or fully closed.
Link
this video at 2:07 was what i was going off of
| BarryL wrote: |
| Actually I can't believe how you've stuck with it and how together it seems your tools and work area and willingness to learn are plus it appears you already know a lot. I even thought that maybe this was a prank test like Candid Camera was in the past. |
i owe my tools to my grandad and im just trying to do the best i can with what ive got i was just lucky enough to be provided with the tools/info/opportunity to work on this thing and i especially appreciate yours and everyone else's comments to help me out with this thing. IM SUPER EXCITED to get this bus running. technically its my first car lol and ive probably had it for 5-6 years so im long overdue for giving this bus the attention it needs |
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Culito
11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5865
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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That video at 2:07 is for a different type of carb - on those the idle speed is set with the screws on the side of the carb. On the older carbs (yours), you set the idle speed with the arm.
http://www.vw-resource.com/28carb.html#idle
I think this is correct for yours, although (disclaimer) I haven't worked with one myself.
Try to set the idle speed with the screw on the arm.
Someone correct me here if I'm wrong...
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| Culito wrote: |
That video at 2:07 is for a different type of carb - on those the idle speed is set with the screws on the side of the carb. On the older carbs (yours), you set the idle speed with the arm.
http://www.vw-resource.com/28carb.html#idle
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hes got like 5 different types on the table one of them is a 28 pict. i figured when he mentioned the throttle screw he was just referring to a default for any that had a screw like that but that vid should help explain where ive got mine set if thats wrong at least were on the same page now
so the link says:
Warm up the engine. Check to make sure the automatic choke is fully open.= ok
Set the idling speed to 850 rpm with the idling control screw on the top of the throttle lever.= uhhh how do i know im at 850 rpms?
Turn the volume control screw (Item #14 to the right until the engine speed starts to drop.
From this position, turn the volume control screw to the left until the engine runs fastest.=this was kinda what i was tinkering with when i first started "hoping to find some sort of sweet spot" where the engine actually decided to idle |
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Culito
11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5865
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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I think you'll know the idle sweet spot if you can ever get there. Just a nice slow, even idle.
Basically you want it slow enough that the distributor advance isn't kicking in.
Turn that screw in until it wants to idle, even with the choke on. Let it warm up so that it idles on the lowest stop when warm. then do the fine adjustments.
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| Culito wrote: |
| Turn that screw in until it wants to idle, even with the choke on. Let it warm up so that it idles on the lowest stop when warm. then do the fine adjustments. |
it wont idle at all for me to make any adjustments regardless of what step its on but if ive got my throttle arm screw adjusted wrong how is it supposed to be set? also i still dont understand what that link ment by "Set the idling speed to 850 rpm with the idling control screw on the top of the throttle lever" |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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How do you have the 6 volts wired to make it run?
Take out the pilot and main jets and shoot Berrymans in the pilot little hole and see if it comes out at the main hole.
For now, turn the throttle adjuster screw on the top of the throttle lever all the way clockwise.
Set the idle mixture screw to 2 1/2 turns out from fully closed.
Run it using your hand on the throttle until it is warmed up and the choke opens fully.
See if it will stay running albeit fast idle.
Be careful and have plenty of ventilation. |
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flendershirebu
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2018
Posts: 183
Location: VA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Bench start help needed |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| How do you have the 6 volts wired to make it run? |
grond bolted on with bell housing positive right to starter then ive got a little wire going from the coil clamped on to positive also
| BarryL wrote: |
| Take out the pilot and main jets and shoot Berrymans in the pilot little hole and see if it comes out at the main hole. |
my guess is that the main hole is the one pointed down the center of the carb that the "air correction jet" screws into?
| BarryL wrote: |
For now, turn the throttle adjuster screw on the top of the throttle lever all the way clockwise.
Set the idle mixture screw to 2 1/2 turns out from fully closed.
Run it using your hand on the throttle until it is warmed up and the choke opens fully.
See if it will stay running albeit fast idle.
Be careful and have plenty of ventilation. |
so ill need to take the carb off again to shoot the berrymans through it before i try to start again but im also wondering should i take the spring off the "idle control screw" on the throttle lever? and if ive got the throttle screw as far in as itll go would that be considered idling or would it be like in that earlier video where i took the return spring off? i was assuming that would be the same as having your foot on the gas pedal constantly |
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