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tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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 Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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There was a guy here that did that. He got a lot of flack over it tho from the purists, but I thought it was a clever idea considering what the prices are like now for the rare items. I'm saving my locker trans & locker front diff because of that reason. If I didn't have another syncro trans, I would have installed a 2wd trans with a peliquin.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604654
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=617072
Last edited by tjet on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| tjet wrote: |
| You have a cheaper repair option if you're not yet ready for a huge unexpected repair bill. You can install a used 2wd trans. I think you may need to put a spacer under the front mount to make it work. You can also keep the front diff out & pull the axles. There's a way to do that as both have been done before. |
| Igeo wrote: |
| Not bad advice really. You know what they say- "Four wheel drive justs gets you into worse places to get stuck".... Get an old Subaru to go skiing! |
Yeah! It has crossed our minds. But honestly it feels like it'd be money spent on a bandaid when we know we need a surgery. We often find ourselves spending a little here and a little there... and eventually we realize we should've just bit the bullet and done it right in the first place. This is feeling like one of these instances. Heck, we'll probably have a 2wd anyway once we get it. I'll probably re-install it and we'll drive the van without the drive shaft over to GTA for them to do minor adjustments if needed. I haven't figured out everything that needs to happen for the re-install just yet.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Slimvest wrote: |
Good for you for sharing all this info with everyone. Tough pill to swallow for sure.
My wife and I camped next to you at Nehalem. Looked like you had a nice van. |
Yeah, glad to hear our experience can be useful to others!
Hey I remember your van. You were the couple that showed up just for one night right? You have the tiny little pop-top. We actually wanted to touch base with you and get to know you two. Our friends Paul and Sara were parked with us and we were admiring your setup. By the time we got up in the morning you were gone 
Next time! If you're local to Portland, we're doing a SW meet-up every first Wednesday of the month at Old Market Pub (tomorrow it'll be there, in the future it might change location). Come on along if you're local.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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The more I think about it, the better I like it. With a serviceable 2wd trans, you get to use your van while you save and/plan and research the sychro trans rebuild. Then, when the new tranny is all fixed with the best parts, you put a new clutch in there, get the front drive all hooked again, sell the 2wd trans hopefully for what you paid for it and bobs your uncle.
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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.....now if Ken or Paul were your uncle...... 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| .....now if Ken or Paul were your uncle...... |
Exactly! Who are Ken and Paul?
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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I ran a 2wd transaxle in my Syncro while I was waiting for parts years ago.. better than having it sit in the driveway. I didn’t like the high reverse ratio and it being non synchronized ... but oh well. Took a really nice camping trip to the now closed land off naciemento Ferguson road.. ended up making a bracket that bolted to the front (front) of the trans and had matching LG carrier ears where the Syncro mounts were bolted.
J |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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I can definitely see Ken getting along with my actual uncle (a fabricator). They both have these machine-shop-best-practice sticker worthy sayings!
Well, installing a 2WD box, even though not such a bad idea isn't really worth considering for us no since GTA received the first half of our payment for them to get this transmission back and running.
Even though we hate the idea of having been taken advantage of, we're somewhat proud about the fact that we aren't just trashing the project! It arguably costs more money than its worth to most people, but we just love our van and the community that came with it!
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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Do you still need to sort out the oil consumption issue with the EJ22?
By the way, it does sound good in the video. Nice prrr I like it. |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| tjet wrote: |
Do you still need to sort out the oil consumption issue with the EJ22?
By the way, it does sound good in the video. Nice prrr I like it. |
Nah, thank goodness. That oil consumption was described be the seller as "this engine will need a head gasket job but for now I top off the oil at every gas fill up." When we bought the van, we drove it straight to Portland, about 150 miles. We probably should've been more careful but by the time we finished the trip, we were short 3 quarts of oil. Apparently our engine was basically toast so we had it rebuilt.
That prrr is indeed nice but somewhat loud inside the van honestly. The guys who rebuilt the engine did other work in there too. They installed that stainless exhaust and welded it straight to the mounting bracket that bolts to the engine block. The engine sounds nice because there's a nice crack on that muffler where the shop did the stupid weld! I still have to fix it.
Ahhh man, so many things!!
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| jberger wrote: |
I ran a 2wd transaxle in my Syncro while I was waiting for parts years ago.. better than having it sit in the driveway. I didn’t like the high reverse ratio and it being non synchronized ... but oh well. Took a really nice camping trip to the now closed land off naciemento Ferguson road.. ended up making a bracket that bolted to the front (front) of the trans and had matching LG carrier ears where the Syncro mounts were bolted.
J |
Are you saying Syncro reverse gear is synchronized? I didn't know that if so.
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Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
| jberger wrote: |
I ran a 2wd transaxle in my Syncro while I was waiting for parts years ago.. better than having it sit in the driveway. I didn’t like the high reverse ratio and it being non synchronized ... but oh well. Took a really nice camping trip to the now closed land off naciemento Ferguson road.. ended up making a bracket that bolted to the front (front) of the trans and had matching LG carrier ears where the Syncro mounts were bolted.
J |
Are you saying Syncro reverse gear is synchronized? I didn't know that if so. |
That's what I'm saying...  |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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Not every trans has them (anymore). When a Syncro trans is built for a diesel, the granny & reverse synchronizers are often removed.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Not every trans has them (anymore). When a Syncro trans is built for a diesel, the granny & reverse synchronizers are often removed. |
Would we say often?? |
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Alaskaberrys
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2016
Posts: 1001
Location: SE Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| VanagonVentures wrote: |
...
Even though we hate the idea of having been taken advantage of, we're somewhat proud about the fact that we aren't just trashing the project! It arguably costs more money than its worth to most people, but we just love our van and the community that came with it! |
I just wanna say thanks for posting this thread and sticking to it - I can totally see where your coming from, and honestly, dealing with that feeling of “I’ve been had” has kept me from posting my progress on my syncro (a shit ton of covered up rust). Your saga is motivating me to get over it and post more pics and progress - no one learns anything otherwise.
That said -
| jberger wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| Not every trans has them (anymore). When a Syncro trans is built for a diesel, the granny & reverse synchronizers are often removed. |
Would we say often?? |
I need help understanding this, what would a granny and reverse synchronizer do? And why would a diesel not want one?
Edit - please feel free to explain a synchronizer!
_________________
'91 Westfalia, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2.1L 2wd Auto
'91 T3 Syncro Doka, Escorial Green 1.9L TD AAZ “Gremian” (to provoke, irritate, exasperate, vex...) |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Alaskaberrys wrote: |
| I just wanna say thanks for posting this thread and sticking to it - I can totally see where your coming from, and honestly, dealing with that feeling of “I’ve been had” has kept me from posting my progress on my syncro (a shit ton of covered up rust). Your saga is motivating me to get over it and post more pics and progress - no one learns anything otherwise. |
I'm really glad to hear it can help! It's definitely disappointing but there it is... At least we'll have an awesome van and an even better community and new friends to go along with it. We arguably paid way too much for all that, but we're looking forward!
You can get through your challenges too! Seriously feeling like you were taken advantage of is one of the worst things, especially when you can't really do anything about it. It's not like we're gonna call the guy almost 2 years later to tell him the transmission he sold us was completely shot. He knows it... he's the kind of person who's OK with living with himself and with that knowledge. It won't change much. Hopefully we're giving this van a new life and it'll pay us back by bringing us awesome adventures.
Oh, we had quite a bit of rust too by the way, not covered up but somewhat hidden
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery
Last edited by T3TRIS on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| jberger wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| Not every trans has them (anymore). When a Syncro trans is built for a diesel, the granny & reverse synchronizers are often removed. |
Would we say often?? |
Haha yeah often is not the right word. Like a surgeon who does appendectomies often it's not on every patient, or the same patient. Herman had trouble with them in his Diesel project and other builders have noticed that "the pins get loose" with Diesels. This is likely related to driving style; diesel drivers enjoying the high torque, and "crawling" at very low RPM ("lugging" their granny gear). It doesn't happen with every Diesel Syncro tranny.
====== https://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com ======
A problem that shows up in the Syncro gearbox after installing a TDI diesel is that the original bronze synchronizer rings get loose on the pins, which break and fall down in between the rotating gears. They then end up smashing a hole in the transmission housing.
=========================
Herman is referring to cracking the 'NLA low-gear housing' when parts from a broken synchronizer are run through the reverse and granny gears. To minimize this, some builders remove the synchronizer. Then the driver has to hold the clutch (and wait) until the gears stop spinning before engaging granny or reverse. Or grind the gears and pollute their lubricant.
Synchronizer seems extravagant on reverse & granny, but ya gotta remember lots of drivers just jam the gears together, letting loose chunks of steel into the lubricant, that accumulates, and circulates throughout the transaxle. And the Syncro is already "synchronizer-challenged" thus soils it's britches a little sooner than a 2wd. So granny/reverse synchronizers may have been deemed essential for this 4wd add-on. And the Vanagon VW owners manual told owners NOT to change the oil, so you know it's going to get polluted already. Trans goes into reverse fairly often, a synchronizer would help to mitigate the accumulation of pollution.
If you're stuck (in a 4wd situation), and have to shift Reverse-Granny-reverse-Granny to rock the van out of a hole....reverse-granny synchronizers are good for "something."
Heres a pic from the Workshop manual showing the reverse-granny synchronizer.
Anyway, VanagonVentures is not running a diesel, and we presume NOT lugging granny gear (or any gear, right?) so this is just "more Syncro-Trivia".
BUT.... with brand new shafts and gears to break-in......VanagonVentures is advised to keep the lubricant clean during break-in too. Soccer-mom didn't have to worry about this back in 1987 she just drove the dang thing, and by 80k miles just wanted a Plymouth due to headgasket problems. VanagonVentures however, is spending almost as much for the trans as Soccermom did for the whole van. And will there be ANY replacements available 100,000 miles from now? Better break in that new trans the best way possible, and no lugging.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| BUT.... with brand new shafts and gears to break-in......VanagonVentures is advised to keep the lubricant clean during break-in too. Soccer-mom didn't have to worry about this back in 1987 she just drove the dang thing, and by 80k miles just wanted a Plymouth due to headgasket problems. VanagonVentures however, is spending almost as much for the trans as Soccermom did for the whole van. And will there be ANY replacements available 100,000 miles from now? Better break in that new trans the best way possible, and no lugging. |
Haha, we are definitely going to do everything we can to make this thing last! And no, I have to re-learn how to drive without lugging. I grew up in France and learned to drive with a diesel manual car. Years of diesel style driving makes it a bit tough, but higher RPMs is what's in our future. That's also one reason why we told GTA to leave the gear ratios as is.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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You were wise to use OEM gear ratios with the EJ22.
I'm somewhat amazed at how undaunted you remain. You are basically a syncro nut deep within your bones, I think. Wait 'til you see what that van can do in granny, with the differential locked....
Now what you need to do is start planning adventures, makes sure that van is ready for action when the snow melts. For example: 4 Syncros, 2 Nations, 1 State: WABDR 2015
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
You were wise to use OEM gear ratios with the EJ22.
I'm somewhat amazed at how undaunted you remain. You are basically a syncro nut deep within your bones, I think. Wait 'til you see what that van can do in granny, with the differential locked....
Now what you need to do is start planning adventures, makes sure that van is ready for action when the snow melts. For example: 4 Syncros, 2 Nations, 1 State: WABDR 2015 |
Ha... "I'm somewhat amazed at how undaunted you remain" and I fall off the face of the earth for a month
Thanks for all your tips Sodo, encouraging words and invitations! Life caught up fast this past month with taxes (still not done), mandatory yard upgrades (to prevent flooding), huge amounts of photography work and of course this transmission! This is my "Academy Awards" part of the speech but I wouldn't have been able to take care of our van (and these other chores) if it wasn't for my partner Jennifer. She might not be the most excited about mechanical talks but there's no way we could do what we're doing if it wasn't for her!
With that said, I was finally able to tinker on the van again last night! I dropped our motor, yay!! I have a list of things on the menu before putting the transmission back in:
- upgrading the fuel lines (finally!)
- resealing the fuel tank and probably replacing hardware and straps with SS
- probably fuel pump, fuel filter and fuel sender (I suspect it'll be a rust disaster)
- installing a new radiator
- installing Burley's reverse throttle for the EJ22
- cleaning up the engine bay and the engine itself
- new TDI starter with WestyVentures adapter
- installing the air filter from vanaru.com
- new bushings, spacers and hardware from T3 Technique for gearbox and front diff
- T3 Technique anti-roll bar with HD endlinks
- new wheel studs and lug nuts and small spacers
- ECU relocation
- main battery relocation (it somehow ended up in under the bench)
- T3 Technique gear shift (the one that's not hollow) and quick shift kit
- and of course, transmission + front diff.
Anyhow, this post was started because of our failing VC and noises in the gearbox. If you're just coming in now, our transmission was in dire need of TLC, way more than we expected which was a bit of a punch to the gut. We dropped the transmission while it was still running in hopes that some stuff would be salvageable in there. When German Transaxle of America took it apart, they didn't have good news (see the photos here). As a matter of fact, GTA was surprised our van was still running and the transmission didn't have a catastrophic failure. Our low gear and reverse were fused together, massive pieces of teeth were chewed off of our ring and pinion, etc etc. Somehow, our mainshaft with 1st and 2nd were somewhat decent, to the surprise of GTA. The general consensus was that we were sold a lemon of a Syncro with the previous owner in a hurry to sell it before expensive gearbox work. Well, now the van is ours and despite being a money pit, we want to keep it on (and off) the road.
The unfortunate part of it is that we had a list of upgrades we wanted to do hoping that the transmission was salvageable. We had to forgo the decoupler (which can be added later without a rebuild), oil cooler/filter (for now) and putting our rear locking diff into the front diff to make it a locker. We did, however, make GTA do everything they could inside the transmission itself and we are now part of the exclusive club of we-had-our-transmission-rebuilt-for-the-price-of-a-good-used-car (just over $11,000, for transmission AND front differential, to be precise). Here are the main things GTA did for us:
- Rebuilt transmission, duh
- Paul Guard 3rd and 4th gears (same gearing as OE)
- Paul Guard mainshaft with 1st and 2nd and option for future oiling system (it didn't make sense to invest in this transmission and re-install our well used mainshaft)
- Paul Guard ring and pinion
- Peloquin LSD locking rear differential
- Oiling ports for future oil cooling/filtering upgrade
- Sport VC
- Front differential rebuilt
The transmission and gearbox are now in our garage, next to the van. I imagine it'll still be a little while before I get to put it all back together, but hey, progress!!! GTA has been a pleasure to work with by the way. Sure they are probably the priciest out there for this type of work, but walking through the shop and chatting with Ken, there was no question that we had made a good choice with hiring them for this work. Only time will tell of course, but we proper maintenance we are confident we'll have a solid system.
Here are photos of the process that GTA shared with us.
Transaxle:
Front differential:
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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