Removing Headliner problems and pop top painting question

[sethgillum]

Hi all,

Long time lurker rare poster. I've got a 75 riviera and I'm installing a new tent this coming weekend. But as one project can lead to another... it's time to rebuild the wood in the pop top, and time to repaint the fibergalss top, front and back.

But I'm having trouble with what seems like it should be the simplest part. Removing the headliner.

My thought was to remove it from the back just enough to cut the rivets that holds in the front fiberglass luggage rack. (this way I don't have to deal with tucking it into the front window seal) The headliner itself is in good shape, I'd love to be able to put it right back after I reinstall the luggage rack.

But it doesn't budge at all. I can see a two inch strip of metal that's the bow? (peeking through the removed ceiling light) And I'm assuming that's glued down? Tried sliding a small screwdriver and a putty knife under it. Loosens it a bit, but not much. Some places it seems impossible to slide it very deep (and I'm a little reluctant to use great force) All that seems to happen is that I bend the top part of the metal in a less than desirable way instead of prying it off.

Also, if anyone has a good suggestion on what to do with those black turning rivets on the outside of the luggage rack, I'd love your suggestions. Seems like a lot of holes to patch if I drill them out. Seems tricky to paint around if I leave them. (it's also got tie down straps inside the luggage rack, so I don't need them to stay)

HUGE THANKS to everyone in the restoring a camper top FAQ post (so helpful). If I'm lucky I'll be able to add my experiences as well to that thread. If I'm not lucky, I'll be adding "mistakes you should avoid.."

Thanks for your time,
Seth

[Franklinstein]

To my recollection you need to start removing the headliner at the windshield by getting it out from underneath the rubber seal. Work back over both doors then it slides out from that long tab in the rear.

I believe that those "black turning rivets" went with a cover for that luggage well. If you pull the well off of the bus repairing it should be easy even with the holes from deleting those now useless black cover holders.

Since you have a late 70s Riviera you might find my 79' Riviera poptop restoration thread helpful.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469731&highlight=

Look forward to seeing your progress!
_________________
1979 Riviera Poptop - 1.8L VW 93' Fox watercooled

Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody has one and yours all stink!!!

[andrewtf]

I just drilled the rivets out from the top and didn't remove the headliner when I did mine (the first one anyway). You just have the end of the rivet rolling around in the headliner - but they find a resting place quickly and easily.

Fix it up and rivet it back in place. It does take some monster huge rivets though.
_________________
'75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey

[sethgillum]

Thank you both for the help. Franklinstein, I've read your thread on restoring your top many many times. It was the inspiration to start mine! I expected many problems, but the headliner wasn't one. I'm going to look it over one more time today, see about starting from the front, and if I don't make any progress, I'll take it to an auto upholstery place I've used in the past. I'd hate to ruin a good headliner by me ineptly messing with it.

Thank you again

[busdaddy]

[sethgillum]

My Auto reupholstery person told me it would be easy... I'm not sure he's right, but I went back at the headliner this morning/afternoon.

I was told to start around the windows, which was the right advice. I was able to release it from the clips around the window with a putty knife. I also used a doctors grabber tool (like a tweezer with a slight curve) to pull out the headliner (which was very lightly glued)

So now I've got it just open enough to see the rivits holding the top down. I'm hoping I can slide a tool inside and pop them off (Dremel?)

Removing the headliner from the back seems really tough. Hopefully I can do it from just the sides. I'll keep you all updated.

Here's some photos.

[Franklinstein]

I was able to remove and replace the headliner without pulling the windshield or its rubber. One can easily pull the edge of the rubber seal and free the headliner above the windshield. Just move the rubber and tuck it back in when you replace it. The sides are done for you already but the back has a tab (metal or cardboard) twisted around the headliner that holds it beneath the attachment you bent back. It came out easily pulling it from the rear once the front and sides were done. If you get the sides and front done you don't even need to remove the back, just roll it up and leave it attached.

Be suspicious about the rivet holes after decades of moisture. They will be rusted and a poor anchor point for rivets.

Below is a view of the rusted rivet hole in my Riviera. Don't trust anything other than bolts/washers, which you could do from the sides if you have to. Just cut the rivets flush with the surface from the inside using a wire cutter to get them off, it is aluminum or other soft metal and was easy to snip off.

_________________
1979 Riviera Poptop - 1.8L VW 93' Fox watercooled

Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody has one and yours all stink!!!

[sethgillum]

Thanks a ton. Today, the luggage rack came off and I removed all the old tie downs and the strange black twist rivets. And I've been watching a lot of fiberglass hole repair videos. There's a small bit of rust on the top of the bus around the holes where the luggage rack attached, so that goes on the list to do as well. I didn't need to pull the headliner out from the front window, I was able to access everything so far (But putting it back on that center hole.. I'm not sure I'll be able to reach that.

So much debris gets caught under that luggage rack! And some putty too. There was a bunch of grey putty, still pretty supple, that must have been attached (for some extra stick and less rattle?) to the center of the luggage rack.

Next up is patching the small holes in the fiberglass and taking off the main top. The plywood attached to the pop top is rotten in a spot, so I'm going to replace that. And check the state of all the wood. Feels like the journey is just beginning.



Franklinstein, How did that seal kit work for you? I'm a little worried about adding a seal to the pop top bottom. It seems to rest nicely in there without a seal and my conversation with the people at GoWesty - one thought there there should be a seal on the bottom of the pop top. One thought no seal on the bottom, only on the luggage rack and front side of the pop top. What's your experience? Is it tougher to close the top with the seals?

[Bulli Klinik]

I just finished doing similar work on a Riviera top. The owner of the Bus replaced the forward section of the top with a new piece of wood, glassed and painted the top. Unfortunately the piece was not exact and once the top was back on the Bus, it pinched the luggage rack too tight on the sides preventing installation of the seal. If you replace the forward, wood section, be sure that it mates to the luggage carrier or be prepared to re-do work.

As a side-note I used the bottom seal and it snugs down nicely.

Best of luck!
_________________
I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs

[Franklinstein]

Sethgillum,
I used the seal kit from Bus Depot. Bought years ago but I presume the kit has not changed. Looks like still 80 bucks.
http://www.busdepot.com/WESTYRUBBER

If I had to do it all over I would skip the kit and get the separate seals that they sell, skipping the middle one that they supply.

In my opinion the kit "h" shaped middle seal is not a good fit for the 79' Riviera. Yes I tried it both ways.

I ended up ordering the same "U" shaped seal that the bottom of the front well used. The original middle seal I replaced was "U" shaped and yours looks the same in your photos.

Middle, front, back seals in the kit.

I have no problems with the fit of the rear poptop seal that sits in the bus water channels. I would not try to go without it as you seem to be questioning. The top opens and closes easily. The middle "U" shaped seal fits nicely over the front well when closed.

In my opinion Bus Depot should mention that their Westy rubber kit does not fit late 70's Rivera poptops, and should offer an option to swap the middle seal for a "U" shaped one.

No advice to offer about the wood you are replacing. I left the poptop on and only had to paint the outside. There are a few good posts on the forum on removing Riviera poptops. Keep the pictures of your progress coming!
_________________
1979 Riviera Poptop - 1.8L VW 93' Fox watercooled

Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody has one and yours all stink!!!

[KentABQ]

[Franklinstein]

I discussed this issue years ago somewhere in a " Pop top seal kit review" thread here.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Someone named werksberg suggested they and bus depot would consider selling the kit with a Riviera middle seal option. But no change as I can tell.

[sethgillum]

Once again, a huge thank you for all of your help. I've looked at many of your posts, and it's all a bit intimidating. I certainly don't have your skills, but I've got tenacity, time and friends. So we will see where this ends up.

This is a great community as a forum lurker, but as a poster I'm blown away by all the quality advice.

Yesterday, I got the pop top and tent off. Despite the perils of removing a bazillion staples, and the difficulty lifting of the top it went well. Took about 6 hours in all. But it finally feels like the early prep work is done and the real job can start.

I left on the metal rails on the bus (The work well, are sealed well, figured why mess with what works. There's also a thread from 2008 that suggested leaving the putty that holds the rail to the bus intact. Figured I'd do one better and leave the rails intact) Getting out the screws that hold the tent on while leaving on the rails was tough. There's only an inch from the screw to the metal rail, so I cut off the end of a drill bit - used locking pliers to grab and turn the drill bit, and took my time. Finally got them all off.

The wood on the pop top is pretty rotted. So I'll be headed to home depot today to get plywood to rebuild the inside.

I'm also going to follow the wisdom of Mike K and keep the same wood that directly fits against the luggage rack. The wood looks pretty good, but there's a product called LiquidWood that's a two part epoxy wood hardener. I've used it on tough to fix windows and it's amazing. So I'll sand that down, hit it with the LiquidWood and that ought to keep it in good shape for a very long time. Might do the same with all the wood that's on the side of the top (I can see the upholstery staples on the back, brush it on from the back side)

Few questions for those who have been here before -

Anyone have an opinion on the best way to resecure the plywood that holds the metal rails on the fiberglass pop top? It looks like the wood is held in with fiberglass on the sides. (see photo) I could do that again...


Any suggestions on the best way to paint the inside of the pop top fiberglass? (the underside part you can see when the top is up, same photo as the one below.) I was assuming a regular primer and paint. Any reason that's a bad idea?

And that grey putty that holds everything down. Seems like I should get more of that. A thread from 2008 asked about that, but I didn't see any replies to the question. Any ideas on what would be a good choice to use today?

And just to confirm, the bulb seal for the luggage rack - the simple u channel seal for the front of the pop top and the simple U channel seal for the bottom of the bus? I'll be ordering by the foot.

The old plywood top panel is stapled in from the backside (where you have to rip it all apart to change the rotting plywood panel. I was assuming I'll do the same thing again, but is that something I should try to make accessible without tearing apart the whole top? Maybe a wood trim piece that I could remove as needed? Or am I being silly trying to plan for a far far distant future that I shouldn't worry about?

And lastly, I've tried in the past to switch the dome light to an LED, but it flickers. Seems like a fine time to replace the dome light (you can also see that in the photo) I like the look of the old dome light, but it's rotting away. Doesn't have to be the same... The old dome light was riveted in and inaccessible to change. I'm thinking I could use a clean looking screw to make it possible to change out the light in the future.

[sethgillum]

The things you learn....
If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have pulled out all the wood framing inside the fiberglas top. That was a surprisingly big job. The fiberglass holding in the wood was really tough to remove. And it sure looked like the top wood panel was fiberglassed to the pop top roof - like they put it in as they did an injection mold? I'm not sure how I would have replaced the plywood on the top without removing the side frames. It's stapled down on the back side of the frame. Maybe adding a small moulding piece along the sides and have the plywood sit atop the moulding instead of the frame? Tie it together that way? I'm not sure- but I'd explore other options if I were to do it again.

But I did it, so Onward!

The wood under the pull down handles was rotten too. Looks like it leaked through the pull down handle holes. I had to drill out those screws, the heads disintegrated when I tried to turn them.

Built a new frame with 3/4 in plywood and a nice maple 1/4 in plywood for the top (which I'll seal and probably keep as the facing side)


It was really tricky to get the top plywood to stick to the ridges of the pop top. We used liquid nails on all the ridges and pressed. We couldn't figure out a good way to clamp it so I'm hoping enough stuck that the wood won't vibrate when I drive. I suspect it's going to work, but I'm just not sure.

Re fiberglassed in the wood to the side of the pop top. 100 degrees here in los angeles, trying to find the right amount of 3m fiberglass resin hardener was awfully tough. Everything set up almost instantly. Or not at all.


When it cools down, I'll start on the job I originally took the top off for. Painting. And when I finish it all up, I'll write up a post with my lessons learned.

P.S. didn't install the dome light. Not sure what I want up there, and before I make holes in my pretty new plywood top, I want to give some thought to the best type of lighting. Probably something LED so I don't have to worry about draining the car battery much.

Some photos of the process.

Struggling with removing all the fiberglassed in wood

Clean top - the 4 wood squares support the pull down handles. The original wood was completely rotten

New wood frame ready to go in

Frame is in - but not yet fiberglassed on the sides to hold it tight. Be sure you screw in the frame to those two wood pieces in the center- my top was 1" wider in the middle than at the ends before I screwed it in tight.

[sethgillum]

Never finished up this post. But I finished the job! So here's a few tips for the next person.
1) Use marine quality Fiberglass! Made everything so much easier.
2) You can reattach the luggage rack without fully removing the headliner or windshield. There's not a lot of space, but if you free the headliner from the window area on both sides, it was enough for me to put the luggage rack back on. It's much easier if you remove the windshield, but don't let that stop you from doing the job.
3) Know it's a much bigger job if you pull the whole underside out on the main top and replace the wood on the sides. I thought that would be the easiest way to replace the rotted underside of the top. As you can see, you have to re fiberglass in the whole frame, and that was a bigger job then I expected.
4) prepare to replace your springs for the pop top. Mine didn't stay up well with the old springs. I must have added additional weight to the top in a way that I didn't expect. Putting on the new springs was really hard. I pieced together
Here's the thread on springs
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=417602&highlight=springs
How he got it on, I'll never know. I used a small steel carabiner to join the two springs. I needed that extra space to attach them. I put a rope on one end of the spring, pulled hard from a high angle, while a friend hooked it on. Took some real muscle. (and prop the top up with a piece of wood as high as it will go before you start)

Start here if you are thinking about this job!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469731&highlight=

[sethgillum]

Final batch of photos.
Painting.

Also, I removed all the odd turn rivets on the outside of the luggage rack. And fiberglassed over the holes. if you look really closely, you can tell they were removed, but I'm pretty happy with the result for a guy working on something like this for the first time.

Replaced all the hardware with stainless steel on the luggage rack

And I'm finally done. I've got nothing special to add to all the great info already existing on reinstalling the tent. That was the easiest part.

And finally on the road again camping in Los Olivos (north of santa barbara)
Huge thanks to all who added all the information that made this repair possible. I'm in all of your debts.

[werksberg]

[bertiethevan]

So happy for this thread! I think I want to tackle the fiberglass on my '76 Riviera this year. The luggage rack definitely needs to come off. There is a hole in the fiberglass I want to repair and I NEED to get rid of the rust on the lid (I'm scared of what I'll find up there!) The tent on the penthouse could also use replacing and the wood where the pulldown handles are is also rotting. I know where to come when I get stuck!