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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| colin - it only happens if the bus sits a week or two.Think whatever you want but until someone comes up with a better idea it is cavitation. Letting it run a few seconds and turning it off, let it sit and start it again can cut 15 - 20 seconds off getting oil pressure on a late case. There is a audible change when the oil pressure comes up so I am sure that the gauge and sender are correct. There are a limited number of possible causes here for the late case syndrome. |
These are exactly the symptoms that show up when the o-ring in the Type 4 pump fails. Could be other problems as well. This is not a popular idea, but I personally run an extra quart of oil in the crankcase as it can improve the priming problem with the pump and the problem on a side hill that Collin mentions. There are steps that can be taken to improve the seal between the inlets and outlets of the pump to the case as well. |
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RalphWiggam
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Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| I remember reading somewhere about someone running an extra quart of oil. Must have been you. Anyone else doing this? |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| I remember reading somewhere about someone running an extra quart of oil. Must have been you. Anyone else doing this? |
Some Porsche guys and people that run ACVW engines in airplanes. |
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RalphWiggam
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Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| I remember reading somewhere about someone running an extra quart of oil. Must have been you. Anyone else doing this? |
Some Porsche guys and people that run ACVW engines in airplanes. |
There has to be some downside. Or else vw would've just put the mark on the dipstick higher right? |
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WestyPop
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Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 1732
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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FWIW of course, WIX has been owned by Mann + Hummel for some time now.
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rottenkid
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Joined: June 19, 2015
Posts: 236
Location: Warkworth, ontario
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| Any opinions on using the Quaker State Filters. They happen to be readily available at Canadian Tire in Canada. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| I remember reading somewhere about someone running an extra quart of oil. Must have been you. Anyone else doing this? |
Some Porsche guys and people that run ACVW engines in airplanes. |
There has to be some downside. Or else vw would've just put the mark on the dipstick higher right? |
If you park on a side slope of >10% you would increase the likelihood of a cylinder filling with oil, but I have had that happen on steep side slopes even without the extra oil. |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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depends how high the oil sits. If the crankshaft hits it, that whips the oil up and raises its temperature. That is the reason some engines run oil baffles that keep the oil away from the crankshaft - or some engines run dry sumps. When the crank hits the oil it wraps around the crankshaft like a big taffy ball and robs hp that goes into heat. As long as the oil level is below the crankshaft there is no problem however. When I've run extra oil in my 1977 bus there has been no noticeable benefit at all.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| An extra quart gets the oil level up onto the cam shaft after drain down, while the Type 4 case makes somewhat of a windage tray to begin with. |
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RalphWiggam
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Joined: February 02, 2018
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Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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OK so I got around to cracking open my old Mann 920/17 filter. I used a can opener and think I broke it. Don't tell Mrs Wiggam.
There is definitely no anti drain back valve in the Mann filter. There is a metal stand that separates the filter element from the bottom of the housing. I assume this functions as the relief system if the filter gets clogged.
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Bleyseng
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Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| I remember reading somewhere about someone running an extra quart of oil. Must have been you. Anyone else doing this? |
In my 914 yes for Autocross as most of the oil ends up in the valve covers flying around so it does help plus a Tuna Can.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
OK so I got around to cracking open my old Mann 920/17 filter. I used a can opener and think I broke it. Don't tell Mrs Wiggam.
There is definitely no anti drain back valve in the Mann filter. There is a metal stand that separates the filter element from the bottom of the housing. I assume this functions as the relief system if the filter gets clogged.
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The relief valve is in the center of teh perforated core usually. The "stand"...is just that usually. Its a stand off so that if the relief valve vents there is room for it to bypass around.
There are a very few designs I have seen where that "stand" is incorporated as the actual spring for the relief valve.
Since you have gone this far...rip off the bottom cap with that stand and see if there is a coil spring or flap valve system.
The two longer filter numbers I posted have anti drain-back valves. Ray |
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RalphWiggam
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Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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There is no separate relief valve. The stand is not fixed to the filter. It just sits on it like a spring. When the pressure gets too high, the filter housing will push the stand down and the filter housing breaks seal with the heavy metal top and the oil will bypass.
I'm using the Wix filters from now on. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
There is no separate relief valve. The stand is not fixed to the filter. It just sits on it like a spring. When the pressure gets too high, the filter housing will push the stand down and the filter housing breaks seal with the heavy metal top and the oil will bypass.
I'm using the Wix filters from now on. |
Yep....thats just like a lot of filters...including more than few Wix. Not all oil filters are the same within any brand.
Wix makes nice filters...and so does Mann. Not all of either brand are excellent.
Glad...or maybe just lucky.... I switched to the longer Mann filter many years ago. The two I listed...are anti drain back valve filters.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
It has been YOU since line #1 of this whole thread section....that cant get that point and has been hung up in whether the valve is needed or not......jjjjjjeeeeeeeeezzzzzz
Ray |
Ray, you never cease to amaze me on how much you can write about something that you seem to not comprehend at all. You obviously do not understand the operation of the lubrication system on either the T4 engine or the VW inline 4 cylinder engines and are unwilling to even try, yet your write on and on.
Just show me one spin-on filter design that is capable of dumping oil into the sump as you have repeatedly claimed happened on the Mk1 and Mk2 engines. |
Its not my claim. Its fact...and if you knew anything about it you would not be even posting.
And....as I noted...again...you read poorly....as I noted....it was NOT the filters direct fault. It was a design issue with the filter head and oil pressure relief valve system...that poor filter bypass designs exploited.
And they built about a million engines with this issue and this oil cooler and oil pressure bypass system....which is why it WAS an issue.
Yeah..you never cease to amaze me either.
Ray |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
It has been YOU since line #1 of this whole thread section....that cant get that point and has been hung up in whether the valve is needed or not......jjjjjjeeeeeeeeezzzzzz
Ray |
Ray, you never cease to amaze me on how much you can write about something that you seem to not comprehend at all. You obviously do not understand the operation of the lubrication system on either the T4 engine or the VW inline 4 cylinder engines and are unwilling to even try, yet your write on and on.
Just show me one spin-on filter design that is capable of dumping oil into the sump as you have repeatedly claimed happened on the Mk1 and Mk2 engines. |
Its not my claim. Its fact...and if you knew anything about it you would not be even posting.
And....as I noted...again...you read poorly....as I noted....it was NOT the filters direct fault. It was a design issue with the filter head and oil pressure relief valve system...that poor filter bypass designs exploited.
And they built about a million engines with this issue and this oil cooler and oil pressure bypass system....which is why it WAS an issue.
Yeah..you never cease to amaze me either.
Ray |
"It was dead on caused by bypassing of pressure to the case by the oil filter."
Your words Ray, MADE UP BY YOU because you don't understand what caused the MK1 and MK2 engines to fail and can't understand that the Type 4 and the MK1 and MK2 engines have substantial differences in the design of their lubrication systems that would 100% prevent the problem that harmed the MK1 and MK2 engines from ever happening on a Type 4. The MK1 and MK2 engines may have failed, but THEY DID NOT FAIL BECAUSE THEIR FILTERS WERE BYPASSING OIL TO THE CASE as YOU claimed. TTBOMK no-spin on filter made has the capability to do this, you claim is absurd and you make it over and over because your ability to understand even a simple lubrication system is non existent.
On a Type 4 engine you can install a filter with NO bypass, or a filter with a high bypass pressure, or low bypass pressure and the engine will never experience the problems seen by the MK1 and MK 2 engines. Your claims are totally unfounded. |
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grungeant
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Joined: February 04, 2013
Posts: 155
Location: Pennsville, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: Motorcraft FL-1a |
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I know this is an old thread.
But for the guys running the Motorcraft FL-1a.
Do you run heat exchangers? If so do you have the 72-74 style?
I have a 74 and the seam on the heat exchanger comes very close to the filter, and so does the engine carrier bar on the other side. Like maybe you can barely fit a flap off the oil filter box in between.
Does your oil filter ever show wear from rubbing against either?
Are you running all of your tins?
I have all my tins including the ones that go betweem the heat exchanger and the block. Will the filter partially blocking where the air comes out reduce cooling any?
I am also running a thermostat.
I am trying the Motorcraft filter for the first time based off of what I have read here, and am kind of scared because I am leaving on a 2000 mile trip Friday morning.
I'm putting it on for now and am going to try it for now. If I see any wear, I'm probably going to go pull the filter and slap a Mann filter back on it for the trip.
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Motorcraft FL-1a |
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| grungeant wrote: |
I know this is an old thread.
But for the guys running the Motorcraft FL-1a.
Do you run heat exchangers? If so do you have the 72-74 style?
I have a 74 and the seam on the heat exchanger comes very close to the filter, and so does the engine carrier bar on the other side. Like maybe you can barely fit a flap off the oil filter box in between.
Does your oil filter ever show wear from rubbing against either?
Are you running all of your tins?
I have all my tins including the ones that go betweem the heat exchanger and the block. Will the filter partially blocking where the air comes out reduce cooling any?
I am also running a thermostat.
I am trying the Motorcraft filter for the first time based off of what I have read here, and am kind of scared because I am leaving on a 2000 mile trip Friday morning.
I'm putting it on for now and am going to try it for now. If I see any wear, I'm probably going to go pull the filter and slap a Mann filter back on it for the trip. |
I have never had any problem running the FL-1a filters or equivalent. There may be variations between individual heat exchangers that could cause problems though.
The short Ford/Motocraft filter FL-300 is pretty much the same dimensions as the OEM filter. |
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grungeant
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Joined: February 04, 2013
Posts: 155
Location: Pennsville, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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It's already on there. I was running the Mann W920/17 for like the last 25k miles or so. The first thing I noticed after restarting for the 2nd time after sitting for an hour or so long enough for the engine to get cold), the oil light went out immediately when the engine started.
Does your setup have 72-74 heat exchangers and all the tins?
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Wix vs Mann Oil Filters for Type4 |
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| grungeant wrote: |
It's already on there. I was running the Mann W920/17 for like the last 25k miles or so. The first thing I noticed after restarting for the 2nd time after sitting for an hour or so long enough for the engine to get cold), the oil light went out immediately when the engine started.
Does your setup have 72-74 heat exchangers and all the tins? |
Yes its a 72-74 exhaust and every piece of tin is there. Sorry it is not close by at present, so I can't check the clearances. |
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