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metoooo
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2007
Posts: 368
Location: ISRAEL
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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Hi,
Can someone tell me if the intake manifold Phenolic Spacer should have cardboard gaskets above and below?
When I took it apart it has cardboard gaskets but I do not see those gaskets in the parts book diagram.
Thanks ! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| metoooo wrote: |
Hi,
Can someone tell me if the intake manifold Phenolic Spacer should have cardboard gaskets above and below?
When I took it apart it has cardboard gaskets but I do not see those gaskets in the parts book diagram.
Thanks ! |
No.....and its not cardboard (few if any gaskets are). They are actually bleached, chopped, compressed with adhesive and molded. The gasket faces of these blocks are cast onto each side.
If they have not peeled or the surtace has not been broken....you can recycle them with a very thin application of stiff RTV like Permatex ultra gray. I apply it with a roller in a thickness of less than .001....then let it dry. It makes a very thin, very slightly compressible surface that allows sealing.
I have not made a "how to" just for the phenolic spacers....but this is the same technique.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691163
You do one side at a time and let it dry before doing the other side. I apply RTV, then with a 1/8" wooden rod wrapped in shop towel....I wipe out any small amount of RTV that bleeds over into the bores.
If the faces of your original gaskets are scratched up....you can lightly sand them on glass with 400-800 grit wet/dry paper. Either way....before you apply RTV, clean them with something clean and fast evaporating. I use MEK folowed buy acetone or you can use Berrymans Chemtool. These seal perfectly when done this way.
Ray |
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metoooo
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2007
Posts: 368
Location: ISRAEL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| metoooo wrote: |
Hi,
Can someone tell me if the intake manifold Phenolic Spacer should have cardboard gaskets above and below?
When I took it apart it has cardboard gaskets but I do not see those gaskets in the parts book diagram.
Thanks ! |
No.....and its not cardboard (few if any gaskets are). They are actually bleached, chopped, compressed with adhesive and molded. The gasket faces of these blocks are cast onto each side.
If they have not peeled or the surtace has not been broken....you can recycle them with a very thin application of stiff RTV like Permatex ultra gray. I apply it with a roller in a thickness of less than .001....then let it dry. It makes a very thin, very slightly compressible surface that allows sealing.
I have not made a "how to" just for the phenolic spacers....but this is the same technique.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691163
You do one side at a time and let it dry before doing the other side. I apply RTV, then with a 1/8" wooden rod wrapped in shop towel....I wipe out any small amount of RTV that bleeds over into the bores.
If the faces of your original gaskets are scratched up....you can lightly sand them on glass with 400-800 grit wet/dry paper. Either way....before you apply RTV, clean them with something clean and fast evaporating. I use MEK folowed buy acetone or you can use Berrymans Chemtool. These seal perfectly when done this way.
Ray |
Thanks for the detailed info! |
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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ray - if i understood your post correctly - no gaskets above or below the phenolic, just rtv both sides?
having problems with vacuum leak, tried paper gasketing both sides but this hasn't solved the issue.
leveled the base of both carbs (twin 32 pdsit), left one was very much not flat.
i'm also using lock washers on the nuts,, i wonder if i should ditch those since they just add a degree of flexibility to the fixing. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| daos wrote: |
ray - if i understood your post correctly - no gaskets above or below the phenolic, just rtv both sides?
having problems with vacuum leak, tried paper gasketing both sides but this hasn't solved the issue.
leveled the base of both carbs (twin 32 pdsit), left one was very much not flat.
i'm also using lock washers on the nuts,, i wonder if i should ditch those since they just add a degree of flexibility to the fixing. |
First make sure these are not cracked. Then make sure they are flat. I lap them on glass on 600-800 grit ....down to clean gasket paper.
You can "seal" the paper surface by basically taking a flat straight edge scraper blade and some Permatex Ultra gray....and literally shear it across the surface like you are buttering toast. You want to have the blade edge at an angle. You want "0" layer of RTV left . A single pass with a sharp edge pushes the RTV into every micro pore that is open.
Let it cure.
An alternate method to teh one I linked....
Then ...by the same method but with something like a plastic vinyl spreader or with a roller....but a very, very thin and even wet layer on on both sides. Put it on the head and apply the runner. Put the nuts on finger tight. Leave it alone for 6-8 hours and then tighten it up. Ray |
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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the ones i have are new so the surfaces are in perfect shape.
since i know i'll need to remove the carbs again in the near future - probably a few times as i'm experimenting with jetting - i'm thinking the full cure prior to installation method might be an option. will the rtv survive that or is it better to remove & reapply each time? |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| daos wrote: |
the ones i have are new so the surfaces are in perfect shape.
since i know i'll need to remove the carbs again in the near future - probably a few times as i'm experimenting with jetting - i'm thinking the full cure prior to installation method might be an option. will the rtv survive that or is it better to remove & reapply each time? |
Something to keep in mind, and no offense to Ray, but RTV is soluble in gas, meaning it breaks down. While Ray's method is good for FI applications, for carbs I'd use thick paper gaskets, at least on the carb side of the phenolic blocks. The extra thickness of the gasket won't hurt, and can help in preventing carb boil off or vapor lock.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| daos wrote: |
the ones i have are new so the surfaces are in perfect shape.
since i know i'll need to remove the carbs again in the near future - probably a few times as i'm experimenting with jetting - i'm thinking the full cure prior to installation method might be an option. will the rtv survive that or is it better to remove & reapply each time? |
Something to keep in mind, and no offense to Ray, but RTV is soluble in gas, meaning it breaks down. While Ray's method is good for FI applications, for carbs I'd use thick paper gaskets, at least on the carb side of the phenolic blocks. The extra thickness of the gasket won't hurt, and can help in preventing carb boil off or vapor lock. |
Its not an issue.
The total exposure of the RTV to fuel.....is a 5-10 micron thick vertical line all around the port. The rest of the RTV......the horizontal parts that are against the port and the phenolic block.....are sealed to their surfaces. The fuel first has to eat into that vertical face....and keep eating.....to get into the sealed horizontal areas. Yo get more than a millimeter of penetration can take years.
This is the same reason molded silicone gaskets have no issues with fuel.
Its only the surface that faces the fuel that get attacked. If the fuel moved laterally between the layers....the layers were not sealed and you already had a leak.
Many people have been using this sealing method for eons.
Its confusing to many. Most RTV tech data sheets say....."not for use with fuel". Yet their uses list list fuel system gaskets etc.
So what gives?
Its not for IMMERSION in fuel. Between sealed surfaces it works fine. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobnotch
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Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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well, removing the stupid lock washers cured the leak.
otherwise i like the sound of the thin rtv as a more permanent seal. i'd prefer it over paper since i would think it has more capacity to conform to surface differences. the only downside being that it has to be cleaned off and re-applied every time the carbs come off. |
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sharkskinman
Lateral Lunatic
Joined: April 26, 2006
Posts: 4030
Location: Deep In My Own Psyche
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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have done Many spaces for F.I. and Everyine I've done has thin layer of rtv on both sides
_________________
74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10
| Me of Course wrote: |
| Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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| sharkskinman wrote: |
have done Many spaces for F.I. and Everyine I've done has thin layer of rtv on both sides
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Do you install them with the RTV still tacky, or dried? |
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sharkskinman
Lateral Lunatic
Joined: April 26, 2006
Posts: 4030
Location: Deep In My Own Psyche
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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dried
When you tighten things down with RTV before it actually get solid it tends to squish out you get it inside things all over the outside of thing if you just roll a nice hard roller on some marble or glass really nice thin layer over and hang them up let them dry
That's usually why they say to install RTV tighten down and then retorque once it's solid
_________________
74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10
| Me of Course wrote: |
| Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump |
| Ward Cleaver wrote: |
| You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards |
PS4 "NKOGNEATO" |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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sharkskinman
Lateral Lunatic
Joined: April 26, 2006
Posts: 4030
Location: Deep In My Own Psyche
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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get the gas resistant grey
_________________
74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10
| Me of Course wrote: |
| Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump |
| Ward Cleaver wrote: |
| You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards |
PS4 "NKOGNEATO" |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
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Location: Kimball, Mi
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Phenolic spacer gasket |
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Yes...I have used it. It is excellent...but not on this. Not on intake gaskets.
Why?
Because it does not cure to full strength...UNLESS it is devoid of oxygen. It is an anaerobic sealant. It works...by exploiting metallic ions as a catalyst between surfaces. Note...it lists for aluminum iron and steel.
I have used this in a few places industrial wise...between a plastic and metal....and its adhesion and cure is weak on the plastic side. It will not adhere well to the phenolic spacer.
The TDA lists its usage with gasoline to about 70% strength...between metal surfaces...at 500 hours at about 23 C...which is only 73 F.
It has no listing for its temp range but they list cleanup of dried material between parts can be sped up by heating to 400-450F. That means the temp range is pretty low.
Here is the TDS
https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/51817.pdf
Really...just use this method to apply some Permatex Ultra gray or black.
Buy a cheap roller at hobby lobby...a cheap sheet of glass at home depot. Works fantastic
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691163&highlight=thin+film
Ray |
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