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jacobcallaghan Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2018 Posts: 183 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:22 pm Post subject: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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Hello,
First off i would love to give a huge shout to Jeff at GemVW. So far the engine has been amazing. He built me a stock 1600 and it cruises nicely. So far have gone 5k miles no worries
Second. I just purchased a motorcycle today. A 1980 honda xl500s. It weighs about 300 Pound. I plan to tow it with a small harbor freight trailer. This leads me to two questions.
My bus is an early 1970 sundial hightop conversion. It has a little bit of but sag and with the added weight of the trailer i thought it might be nice to add coilover springs. Im confused on whether this is a good idea. I have read through some threads and it seems people have mixed results. Will it be to much wear on my mounting points? I would like to have my but sag fixed!
Second question is about engine and towing. I expect my trailer set to be around 500 pounds. Will this tax my engine heavily and wear my bus substantially over time? I baby the bus and drive quite slow not working the engine too hard. I plan to do the same with the trailer.
Thanks for the help! |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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The proper way to fix your sag is not coilover springs (I cannot really comment on whether they will be good to use in general or not) but to readjust your rear torsion bars. Get a set of fresh bushings to go along with it.
I'd tow the trailer and not worry about it. It might cause a little more wear. (Though probably not really a ton over the life of the motor, pushing a high top brick down the road will be the biggest cause of wear!) But so what? Does it increase the fun of all those miles? Then it is probably worth it! I say what's the point of owning these things if we can't have fun driving them? _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51148 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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jacobcallaghan wrote: |
I baby the bus and drive quite slow not working the engine too hard. |
You may be doing your bus more harm than good treating it like that, aircooled engines need RPM's for cooling, and working it hard cleans out harmful deposits in the cylinders and exhaust system, the oil should also reach at least 180 degrees on every drive to boil off corrosive moisture in the oil (200+ is even better). As Dave says don't be afraid to get the most out of it and have some fun, it'll live longer and not die from atrophy.
Also as mentioned load the front seats with ~250 lbs and see how the bus sits, buses sit ass low when empty, when loaded correctly they level out and drive properly, get the rear too high and it may get squirelly on the highway. Your trailer doesn't sound like too much for it, but fresh bushings and reindexed torsion bars would be time well spent.
_________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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You can roughly estimate the increased engine wear by the drop in gas mileage. I guess it will be in the 10-20% range at most, not worth worrying about and easily worth the Zen _________________ .ssS! |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3382
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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There is nothing wrong with the coil overs, I prefer that ride over altering the spring plate position ( and the fore mentioned squirrely-ness ). If you over load the inside of the Bus with coil-overs on you could rip the upper shock mount, otherwise no issues. You can tow a 500 lb load safely, its already slow so you won't notice much. Get a tach and make all RPM decisions based on that information. I keep it at 3300 as much as possible, with occasional "rap ups" to 3800-4000 when accelerating. _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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WhirledTraveller Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008 Posts: 1399 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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I ran coilovers for a while then re-indexed the torsion bars when I switched to Koni's.
Didn't notice a big improvement doing it "the right way", the coilovers worked fine, but it was nice to check and replace the bushings while it was apart.
Incidentally, they are now gathering dust so PM me if you want some lightly used ones for cheap. _________________ 1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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SGKent wrote: |
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. |
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. I’ve run coil overs until they crapped out on my ‘71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. |
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. I’ve run coil overs until they crapped out on my ‘71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary. |
There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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SGKent wrote: |
TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. |
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. I’ve run coil overs until they crapped out on my ‘71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary. |
There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars. |
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. I’ve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture I’ve seen is of Robbies tear which I’m pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if I’m wrong. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3382
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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I blew out both sides before I put the coil overs on, I was hauling heavy,heavy stuff for work on regular basis long distances. I'm sure I over loaded it dozens of times. The fix is not easy, I super reinforced and double sleeved it. I've run coil overs on stock set ups that were not so abused and they did not blow out the top shock mount. Trail bashing is hell on the rear suspension, period. _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. |
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. I’ve run coil overs until they crapped out on my ‘71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary. |
There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars. |
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. I’ve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture I’ve seen is of Robbies tear which I’m pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if I’m wrong. |
Tom, does that look like structural steel to you?
kevineo wrote: |
79 Kombi 2.0 FI, Riviera...rear shock
The left (driver) rear shock at upper bolt was torn out after hitting loose RR track. The bolt spins freely so being 3000 miles from home I borrowed a welder and tacked the bushing and bolt in place.
Must I remove fuel tank to gain access weld new nut and bushing??
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_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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WhirledTraveller Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008 Posts: 1399 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount. _________________ 1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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WhirledTraveller wrote: |
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount. |
that is the result of fatigue. The more the load the sooner the fatigue failure. While hitting stops will put a ballistic spike on load, constant loading in excess of the shocks load will gradually get one there too. But it is a free country and people can do as they please. The guy across the street had two redwoods about 35' from his house. The roots popped his foundation causing massive expense since insurance did not cover it. I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Manfreds78bay Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2009 Posts: 754 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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I re-indexed and put coil overs on with good results. I was towing a small trailer 3k miles and had no ill effects thus far.
FYI i have a 2.0L. She sits perfectly. I would listen to the guys and not depend on coil overs to fix a saggy butt. However, i think the coil overs are a great idea with a trailer and high top setup.
If you are worried about excessive wear on the shock mount, I would swap them out when you are done with your towing.
However, i think that you could only benefit from the coil overs with the extra weight of a high top. _________________ 1978 2.0L FI Campmobile
1982 AMC Eagle SX4 4.2L FI |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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SGKent wrote: |
TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
TomWesty wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair. |
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. I’ve run coil overs until they crapped out on my ‘71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary. |
There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars. |
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. I’ve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture I’ve seen is of Robbies tear which I’m pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if I’m wrong. |
Tom, does that look like structural steel to you?
kevineo wrote: |
79 Kombi 2.0 FI, Riviera...rear shock
The left (driver) rear shock at upper bolt was torn out after hitting loose RR track. The bolt spins freely so being 3000 miles from home I borrowed a welder and tacked the bushing and bolt in place.
Must I remove fuel tank to gain access weld new nut and bushing??
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I believe that is the photo I was referencing. I am aware that shock mounts are really not designed to support the weight of the bus. I read pretty much this same stuff 17 years ago when I first installed coil overs. One of the coil overs has since died and I intend to replace it with air shocks. I will post on here if and when I tear a shock mount. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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mattlockwood Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2012 Posts: 360 Location: KCMO
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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SGKent wrote: |
WhirledTraveller wrote: |
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount. |
I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him. |
California let you remove redwoods???? _________________ 1970 Bay Window Bus.
110 hp 6 cyl Aircooled automatic |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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mattlockwood wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
WhirledTraveller wrote: |
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount. |
I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him. |
California let you remove redwoods???? |
The EPA in Washington DC uses them to burn a meth still. _________________ .ssS! |
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NASkeet Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006 Posts: 2958 Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. |
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WhirledTraveller wrote: |
I ran coilovers for a while then re-indexed the torsion bars when I switched to Koni's.
Didn't notice a big improvement doing it "the right way", the coilovers worked fine, but it was nice to check and replace the bushings while it was apart.
Incidentally, they are now gathering dust so PM me if you want some lightly used ones for cheap. |
VW OEM, heavy-duty rear suspension damper with concentric coil spring (VW part No. 211 513 031 M), as fitted to 1972~79 VW Type 2, uprated delivery vans, with 1·2 tonne payload.
_________________ Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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