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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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So after my cold start valve caught and burned my near perfect harness as summed up here.....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=652223
... My spare harness is very brittle and didn't have the same clean fitment it got me thinking of recreating my own harness with different routing. I had planned to do this awhile ago via this thread...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570114&highlight=harness
The problem being I never liked how the harness runs fat to behind the breather and then makes a split and doubles back. It takes up a lot of space, I always felt like I needed to manhandle the routing back to the AFM and 1/2 injectors. It makes for crowded space routing the fuel lines. Behind the dizzy the 3 connectors seem to be fighting for room against the vacuum can as well. I know Kyle automotive rebuilds them with good reviews but still seems like you end up with the same crowded mess only newer.
My thought was to route the harness under the air cleaner and across and along the firewall. I could reduce the overall diameter of wires by having the loom split earlier for the AFM and 1/2 side as well as running grounds, TTS, AAR, CSV and coil wire coming from the firewall running rearward to their respective locations, and the final ends of the loom going to their spots on the left side.
I started drawing this up and taking measurements and just happen to find on the Vanagon forum someone did this route with an AC Vanagon....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=337593&highlight=harness
I really like what was done, and it cleans up the mess between the plenum, dizzy, and breather. The above harness is slightly different than the 76-79 federal Bus, but the key components and their locations are essentially the same. This routing also seems like it would keep more heat fatigue away from the harness.
If using the same gauge wire is there any issues with the added length you might add over the course of any of the wiring? Just need to get the 18g wire, and various heat shrinks to start this off. Using the diagram on page 41 of the AFC guide as a build schematic _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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secretsubmariner Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011 Posts: 3104 Location: Tulsa, OK
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Missed the third paragraph..... _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Call Kyle and tell him what you want. He can do anything. |
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secretsubmariner Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011 Posts: 3104 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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aerosurfer wrote: |
Missed the third paragraph..... |
Eh, yeah I skimmed it. Whatever.
I just recognized your issue from your thread, which I read yesterday I think. I couldn't remember the name of the guy or the place at the time. I'm sure he could do it however you want, especially if you have a core or two to send his way. He's really nice, I've emailed him a few times. Maybe give it a shot? He needs cores so he can re-use connectors and stuff.
I'd rather pay a pro to do this kind of thing instead of doing it myself _________________ -Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Just emailed Kyle...might get one done up for my bus......hmmm.. _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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secretsubmariner Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011 Posts: 3104 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
Just emailed Kyle...might get one done up for my bus......hmmm.. |
I'd like a red one for the ol' 'pagne but I got bigger kittens to tie up in a bag and throw in the river for now _________________ -Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2922 Location: Memphis
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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I agree about the split loom. I really like what madmax78 Did with his covering in the $50 thread above. I really agree they didn't spend to much R&D money in harness design.
Surprised about the reactions so far, if I don't go to Kyle, I'm a typical cheap Bay window owner, if I create a good, improved harness I'm innovative to the hobby. I guess the pressure is on, hope I can deliver something worthwhile in the near future. I won't be the first to try, and he is not the only one who can. _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2922 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Found an eBay seller in Taiwan supplying several pieces for a bus harness, seller ID coyote243543. Not affiliated with him or the products in any way. He's got FI plugs and the PVC flex wire conduit in multiple sizes, including a glass-lined heat resistant style.
I'll be buying a few things from him when I build my Beetle FI harness. _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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aerosurfer wrote: |
I agree about the split loom. I really like what madmax78 Did with his covering in the $50 thread above. I really agree they didn't spend to much R&D money in harness design.
Surprised about the reactions so far, if I don't go to Kyle, I'm a typical cheap Bay window owner, if I create a good, improved harness I'm innovative to the hobby. I guess the pressure is on, hope I can deliver something worthwhile in the near future. I won't be the first to try, and he is not the only one who can. |
I have never thought much of the routing of the original harness. I say go for it. |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Just talked with him on the phone...
Looks like he already mods the harnesses because he things that the stock way is stupid too...haha
He has three on the shelf brand new no exchange (he's got all new connectors sourced out now) for 399$
Worth an attempt yourself but up to you on how much your times worth. Super nice guy and knowledgeable enough I'd trust his work. Plus it sounds like he's got little upgrades like numbers and colored wire to make testing etc a whole lot easier!
I'd say try it yourself but he's done it already so depends really on what your times worth and your budget. My harness works for now but if I do another engine build and don't swap to H2O then I'd get a new one from him. _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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scrivyscriv wrote: |
... Just please don't use that awful corrugated split loom, it looks like a 5 minute Auto-Zone hack. If you find a good source for the PVC conduit, share it! ... |
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/cloth-wire-loom
Aloha
tp |
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THall Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 324 Location: Verona, WI
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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aerosurfer wrote: |
My thought was to route the harness under the air cleaner and across and along the firewall. |
I'm running a Kyle harness and have it routed this way; along the firewall side. Worked out quite nicely...and I'm very happy with his work. _________________ '78 Westy - 2.0 FI |
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? |
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Well the Harness is a success! I really enjoyed the challenges building it too. The best advice would be to start studying the schematic on page 41 of the AFC guide. Its intimidating at first but once you break down what you have to do in sections (grounds, AFM wiring, Injectors, etc) it becomes very manageable. I used a myriad of shrink wrapping on the various wire sections.
I was able to poach and salvage all the connectors off of my burned up harness, and a beattle harness I had lying around. Ok lets begin....
I wanted to lengthen the harness to route under the air cleaner and over the firewall so this had to be an organic lengthening, so lots of string measurement and padded length to some of the wires, my biggest fear was coming up short and having to make an extension, or back pedaling and undoing sheathing.
I used wire numbers and clear shrink wrap at all the ends. this is a must and kept things very easy to organize
As I went, I would use zip ties and thinner shrink sections to keep things straight. initially the toughest parts were some of the U-Turns the wiring for the 1/2 injectors and AFM pin 36 & 39 make within the harness.
Multiple layers of shrink gave me the sheathing hopefully needed and protection to last at the splits. Some I shrunk fully others I left more flexibility in the layers. I know it will eventually shrink to its permanent size but by then the wires will hopefully create their memory of placement.
Completed with all the coverings. YAAAY
Install for now used 1 inch wire ties adhered to the firewall. If they prove not to stick or I dont like them, i may use screw in wire ties, but really dont want to punch holes if I don't need to.
At some point when I was troubleshooting with the last harness or during removal of the burned one, I broke a wire on my series resistor. I flipped my replacement to hang to the left of the Double relay as that seemed to create less stress on the harness and be a more natural fit. I plan to put Liquid tape where the wire meets the resistor end for added support and protection.
Under the air cleaner, I attached the new harness to the main wiring to keep it away from any edges.
First start was nearly as exciting as my rebuild break-in 4 years ago. Before I turned it over, I Ohm-ed everything out, per the AFC guide. While not surprising, I was certainly relieved everything checked out in spec. It fired right up and is running perfectly.
All in all I used about 110 feet of wire. I had less waste than I figured, but could have saved a even more with tighter measurements. I was able to salvage some original wiring and ends on a few of the short sections. My biggest fear is some sort of chafing and rub through so I will be watching everything closely. Also can still pull the motor with nothing more than clipping a few zip ties as my only change from original.
Now as far as my time and money vs. a Kyle Harness: Totally worth it! I have a new respect for what he does and doing this and making it look good. Time will tell if mine holds up, but it will be easy to service, if necessary. It cost me just under $100 for everything. I bought plenty of extra Shrink, wire mounts, and wire connectors to have lots of wiggle room. I had to stop and order 3/4" shrink after I was about halfway through so that set me back a few days and some lost time, but if I had to do over with everything in stock, I could build it in about 5 hours or less. This is a very capable project... but proper tools are a must. _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Last edited by aerosurfer on Mon May 16, 2016 9:18 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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khalimadeath Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2014 Posts: 768 Location: Reno, NV
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Nice work! |
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otiswesty Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 1731 Location: Portland
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Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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That looks great. I asked Kyle to build me an OEM style harness like you have there and he said there would be an additional charge, like $700 total.
Doh! _________________ 1978 Sage Green P22 Westfalia
1989 T3 Syncro Single cab
Just a regular guy |
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volkybus Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2013 Posts: 481 Location: CASTLETON VT USA
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Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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good to know but 4 years too late...I had a engine fire in my 76 n couldn*t find a new harness so I cobbed one together but the engine never ran right so in the end I threw a set of 34 weabers on it ...I only get 21 mph now so I lost 1 mpg....I wish I*d known....good luck...Bill |
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otiswesty Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 1731 Location: Portland
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Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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I installed my Kyle harness today.
Ever since I installed the Camper Special motor a few years ago, I have been dealing with annoying idle issues, usually low idle, but occasionally a random fast idle. I would do a little tuning on the throttle body fuel mix on and off. One thing I did notice was that there was some breakdown of the wire jacketing on the original harness and thought that this may be contributing to the idle issues.
The new harness seemed to be the obvious solution. Here is a comparison of the original and new harnesses.
Notably, there are 2 extra electrical connectors on the passenger side that I'm not sure what they go to.
Once I got the new harness installed, the bus started immediately, But when under load, had hesitation and bucking with occasional misfires. It stalled going out the driveway.
I checked all the vacuum lines as they got pulled on during the wiring swap and seemed like the most likely culprit. Trimmed off some spilt rubber tubing ends, replaced the rubber elbow on the AAR vacuum hook up and made sure everything was tight and good. Even added some zip ties.
Problem seemed less pronounced but still not driving properly. I had a spare ECU, so swapped that in with no real difference. I am tempted to put the old harness back on tomorrow to see if it is something related to the new wiring. Kind of disappointing, but hopefully will get this all sorted pretty soon. Any ideas or suggestion are appreciated. _________________ 1978 Sage Green P22 Westfalia
1989 T3 Syncro Single cab
Just a regular guy |
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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What are you using for a distributor? Is it the Jake Raby suggested Mallory? Because the quality of those went to shit shortly before he stopped offering the "camper special" engine package. Along with with a bunch of other NLA quality parts. I doubt your issue is with Kyle's harness. I would first look at what you are using for a distributor. If you are running Pertronix on a stock distributor take it off and throw it in the garbage. I would contact Clatter as he is well versed in the "CS" and has had stumbling issues as many others have had. My thought is that it has to do with the augmented duration on the exhaust. As technically savvy as you are I am willing to bet Jake would answer your questions if you sent him an email. He may be primarily building insanely high tech engines these days....but he still has a soft spot for the engine that he built his reputation on. This is just my personal opinion. I am a devout follower of his expertise. He's not unapproachable nor an omniscient asshole as many would like you to think. The guy has done more R&D for the type 4 engine than anyone on the planet. He just got tired of the hammerheads questioning his 1000's of hours of development. |
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