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1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

I purchased this 1983 Vanagon camper non- op. I have gone through all the basic troubleshooting in the Bentley manual. My issue is that I believe everything is functioning as it should with the exception of the Hall sensor as I have no fuel spraying from the injectors. Everything is I believe pointing to the Hall sensor but am looking for some additional feedback before purchasing a $140 part. I have read several posts here of what seemed relevant. Here is what I know.

1. New injectors. Fuel pressure is within spec.

2. I have excellent spark at all plugs

3. I have hooked up a NOID light at each injector with no pulse

4. The tests per Bentley on the individual injectors did test between 17.1 to 17.8 ohms on all injectors, Not sure why they would be higher than approx. and maybe that is ok?

5. I also tested the Hall control unit (type AEG) and was at 10.45v with battery at 12.00v.

6. Completed Hall sensor test with test light at outer two pins with power and ground test being good. Also grounded center pin of plug with coil lead grounded and had spark at coil lead but felt no pulse at injectors.

Does all this lead to what I believe is the Hall Sensor? If I understand correctly the Hall sensor sends the pulse to the injectors.

Thanks for any and all help!
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

If you have spark on cranking then the Hall is fine.

I don't see where you have tested for 12V at one pin on each injector connector with key on. With what you've said it's possible your ECU isn't even getting powered, your ignition system is independent of the ECU. Does the fuel pump cycle on for a few seconds and stop with every key on? Check out the main ECU and fuel pump relays. Really it's best to just go thru the whole wiring checks table in Bentley, it's pretty comprehensive.
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
If you have spark on cranking then the Hall is fine.

I don't see where you have tested for 12V at one pin on each injector connector with key on. With what you've said it's possible your ECU isn't even getting powered, your ignition system is independent of the ECU. Does the fuel pump cycle on for a few seconds and stop with every key on? Check out the main ECU and fuel pump relays. Really it's best to just go thru the whole wiring checks table in Bentley, it's pretty comprehensive.


I forgot to mention that yes I did check for voltage at each injector and did have power.

Yes the fuel pump cycles on with every key on. I also bridged terminals 20 and 25 to cycle the pump and that functioned correctly.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

On a Bay it is common for people to hook the trigger wire to the wrong terminal on the coil and thus get no spray. I can't visualize the 1.9L coil wiring to know how likely it would be for the same to happen.
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Dg2028
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

If you think you have the right power to the injector you should back probe a ground to it and see if the injector clicks and flows. My injectors were not working on a van I bought. Turns out it was a butt connecter in the harness that supplies power from the relay to the injectors and aux.air reg. I think. It was corroded and greened out. I had 12v but not enough amps to open the injector. What did you use to check your power? Multimeter can be misleading.
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Dg2028 wrote:
If you think you have the right power to the injector you should back probe a ground to it and see if the injector clicks and flows. My injectors were not working on a van I bought. Turns out it was a butt connecter in the harness that supplies power from the relay to the injectors and aux.air reg. I think. It was corroded and greened out. I had 12v but not enough amps to open the injector. What did you use to check your power? Multimeter can be misleading.


I have gone back through the checklist again.

In doing so I have no voltage at injectors or any flicker of light from a NOID tester. All injectors and leads were within ohm spec.

I have plenty of spark and the fuel relays tested good. Fuel pump cycles with each ignition on and off. Fuel pressure is good.

Removed and cleaned all engine grounds.

Hall sensor tests seem fine as well as

You did mention auxiliary air regulator. Silly question but does the harness that plugs into the intake sensor need to be plugged in to complete a loop to fire injectors?

At this point Iím wondering if the ECU is bad. But if I recall there was another ground test to run off the #1 pin.

My battery went too low to crank so its on the charger to run back through tomorrow.


Last edited by CoolCampin on Sat May 18, 2019 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
On a Bay it is common for people to hook the trigger wire to the wrong terminal on the coil and thus get no spray. I can't visualize the 1.9L coil wiring to know how likely it would be for the same to happen.


Did you mean swapping 1 & 15 on the coil?
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

EDIT!!! This statement is wrong. The injectors get power from the fuel pump relay, not just because the key is on!!
When the key is on 1 pin of each injector connector should have CONSTANT 12v, measured between the pin and chassis bare metal. DO YOU?

Since you say you are getting spark the hall must be doing something to trigger this.

The ECU pulses a GROUND to the injectors to make them fire. Each time it sees a hall pulse it then pulses the ground for all 4 injectors. These injector pulses are so short that you shouldn't expect to see them with a cheap meter. That is where the noid light comes in.

Mark

CoolCampin wrote:
....
I have gone back through the checklist again.

In doing so I have no voltage at injectors or any flicker of light from a NOID tester. All injectors and leads were within ohm spec.

I have plenty of spark and the fuel relays tested good. Fuel pump cycles with each ignition on and off. Fuel pressure is good.

Removed and cleaned all engine grounds.

Hall sensor tests seem fine as well as

......


Last edited by crazyvwvanman on Tue May 21, 2019 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
When the key is on 1 pin of each injector connector should have CONSTANT 12v, measured between the pin and chassis bare metal. DO YOU?

Since you say you are getting spark the hall must be doing something to trigger this.

The ECU pulses a GROUND to the injectors to make them fire. Each time it sees a hall pulse it then pulses the ground for all 4 injectors. These injector pulses are so short that you shouldn't expect to see them with a cheap meter. That is where the noid light comes in.

Mark

CoolCampin wrote:
....
I have gone back through the checklist again.

In doing so I have no voltage at injectors or any flicker of light from a NOID tester. All injectors and leads were within ohm spec.

I have plenty of spark and the fuel relays tested good. Fuel pump cycles with each ignition on and off. Fuel pressure is good.

Removed and cleaned all engine grounds.

Hall sensor tests seem fine as well as

......


Mark,

Yes I did ground the my voltmeter and nothing. It is an old multimeter. I also used a noid light in every injector lead as a cranked the engine with a remote starter and nothing at all.

So if the ECU is supposed to get a signal from the Hall sensor then send that to the injector it seems that the ECU may me the weak link correct. The tests I performed per the book indicate the Hall sensor and generator is doing what it is supposed to.

One test I have not done yet was on 24.41 and put test light to #1 pin then ground and crank.
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CoolCampin
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

I performed the test on 24.41 and had no light as I cranked the engine either. With that I think I need to look for the possible causes.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

EDIT!!! I was wrong !! The injectors get power from the fuel pump relay and thus only have power when the fuel pump relay is turned on!! The ECU controls the ground for the fuel pump relay as well as pulsing the injector ground the fire the injectors.


......The ECU provides the ground pulses to fire the injectors. If the injectors aren't getting power to begin with when the ECU turns on the fuel pump relay then you should test the relay and look at its wiring. Indirectly the ECU does power the injectors, using the FP relay.

Mark


Last edited by crazyvwvanman on Tue May 21, 2019 10:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dg2028
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

If you have power out of the relay but not at the injector you should check the connecter I was talking about. On mine it was wrapped up in the harness. The wiring diagram in the book shows it. It was a metal crimp connection with 6 wires that tie in together. Power from relay, 4 injector power wires, auxiliary air regulator power wire. The auxiliary air regulator does not have to be plugged in. But you could check if it has 12v. I would show pictures if I knew how to upload. Did you supply power and ground to a injector to see if it kicks on?
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Dg2028 wrote:
If you have power out of the relay but not at the injector you should check the connecter I was talking about. On mine it was wrapped up in the harness. The wiring diagram in the book shows it. It was a metal crimp connection with 6 wires that tie in together. Power from relay, 4 injector power wires, auxiliary air regulator power wire. The auxiliary air regulator does not have to be plugged in. But you could check if it has 12v. I would show pictures if I knew how to upload. Did you supply power and ground to a injector to see if it kicks on?


I see the diagram and I have cut open the harness sheathing in many places where it would appear the 6 pin connector might be with no luck finding it. Any recollection where yours was? After checking for voltage at the injector leads again I know I had voltage there in the beginning but am now wondering if I caused a problem crossing over the leads on the fuel injectors

The auxiliary air regulator has just under 5v at 2 of the terminals if that means anything.

I have not tried to put a power and ground to the injectors as they are all new and never been run. Since I dont have any power going through the harness I wasn't sure testing the injector before having power to them was beneficial.

I pulled up the Digijet FI Pro Training and went back through all the tests on page 67. I performed all the tests in order and they lead to replace the ECU as I had voltage, continuity and ground where tests stated. The fuel pump cycles on and off fine. Anything else I should check?
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Mine was in the engine harness in the area above where the radiator hoses enter and exit the engine. It's not a 6 pin connecter that you can disconnect. It's was a butt connecter with 6 wires going into it. I cut it out and replaced it with the blue butt connecter. It joins the four injector wires auxiliary air regulator wire and relay output wire together so they all should have continuity. You need 12 volts but also enough amps to light a test light, noid light .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Dg2028 wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Mine was in the engine harness in the area above where the radiator hoses enter and exit the engine. It's not a 6 pin connecter that you can disconnect. It's was a butt connecter with 6 wires going into it. I cut it out and replaced it with the blue butt connecter. It joins the four injector wires auxiliary air regulator wire and relay output wire together so they all should have continuity. You need 12 volts but also enough amps to light a test light, noid light .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you really have only 5 volts at the Aux Air Valve , then you have a Voltage drop, most likely corrosion in a splice or connection, or a loose connection.
Sounds like itís going to be that 6 way/wire splice as mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Dg2028 wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Mine was in the engine harness in the area above where the radiator hoses enter and exit the engine. It's not a 6 pin connecter that you can disconnect. It's was a butt connecter with 6 wires going into it. I cut it out and replaced it with the blue butt connecter. It joins the four injector wires auxiliary air regulator wire and relay output wire together so they all should have continuity. You need 12 volts but also enough amps to light a test light, noid light .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks for the information, I will check that location tomorrow. I do have a noid light that I have used on the injectors with no light.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

I have searched and searched, cutting open many sections of the harness (the tan color) and have only found a crimp connector with three wires going to it. Even feeling the length of the harness for any type of connector or bulge with no luck. The othe sets below that all go to ground or Hall sensor. What a pain.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

Those tiny numbers on the wires in your photo mean something. I think that is the crimp splice you are looking for.

If you look at the wiring diagram for the year that harness is from you should be able to find white wires shown there with those numbers on them. I'm afraid I owe you an apology. I haven't looked closely at the Digijet wiring in awhile. It seems from the diagram that the injectors get power from the fuel pump relay and thus don't have power all the time just because the key is on. They only get power when the fuel pump relay is turned on. Same for the aux air regulator.

Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Those tiny numbers on the wires in your photo mean something. I think that is the crimp splice you are looking for.

If you look at the wiring diagram for the year that harness is from you should be able to find white wires shown there with those numbers on them. I'm afraid I owe you an apology. I haven't looked closely at the Digijet wiring in awhile. It seems from the diagram that the injectors get power from the fuel pump relay and thus don't have power all the time just because the key is on. They only get power when the fuel pump relay is turned on. Same for the aux air regulator.

Mark


After looking at the wiring diagram those are the wires from the relay to the injectors. I was looking for bullet connectors to begin with and not a crimp. It was getting late and I thought I only saw two wires Rolling Eyes . After staring at all these white wires for a while things sometimes run together. I will test them this evening and see what I come up with.

No worries Mark, I will have to check them again.
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: 1983 1.9 Water cooled- Hall sensor in relation to injector spray Reply with quote

The six wires going to the crimp connection between the fuel pump and injectors looked good and clean. I went ahead and cut them back and reconnected them. No change.
I then went back through all the tests per the Digijet Pro Training tests and have come back to the conclusion that it is the ECU. I have located one that came out of a running van and will hopefully have it later this week.
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