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Bleyseng Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005 Posts: 4752 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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"If you are running Pertronix on a stock distributor take it off and throw it in the garbage."
Why do you say that? I have been running Pertronix in mine since 2006! But I guess to troubleshoot this issue I would go back to stock to sort it out. I would check the CHT first! Pull it and put a ohm meter on it to verify its good. _________________ 70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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A couple of observations:
The starting point....yes....your old harness had issues. If it had cracks in wire insulation and frayed wires at strain reliefs and had any pacthes...either soldered or crimped...then you had "some" either high resistance, variable resistance or intermittent connections.
So your CS had on and off idle issues before the harness swap right? Just asking for the record.....did you check and correct every single potential vacuum leak source...
Dipstick boots
Oil chimney
Pcv diaphgram
Runner boots
TB o-ring
TB shaft seal on bottom side
***TB plate fit in TB...this can actually be a pretty big issue
S boot and associated hoses
Runner to head gaskets
Injector seals
Vacuum can on distributor
There are more but I'm making a point.....
Did you check fuel pressure, stability, regulator leak down function?
Did you check all major grounds?
Did you check input voltage to both ignition and to fuel pump?
Did you do a good basic check of the ignition system to make sure everything is spot on?.
And for the record.....I can say that the Pertronix module.....gets about a 50% bad rap....that it does not deserve.
I have had nothing but flawless performance with Pertronix....and yes....on L-jet as well. The only issues I have ever had with it were either from my own doing....or from not paying attention to a wiring issue that needed to be fixed.
HOWEVER......and this is why I say 50% bad rap.....there is not a single thing wrong with the Pertronix module DESIGN.
Its nothing but a switch....just like points.....but cleaner and with less signal degradation.
But there have been some less than stellar quality control here and there over the years.....and except for a few actually defective parts like a bad magnet ring or switch module.....that I have seen others have but never experienced myself......the only real issues....and they are real issues......are the occasional wire crimp quality.....which I automatically fix/replace on ANY points replacement module......AND.....and this is the main issue......there are module bracket fit issues, magnet ring to shaft fit issues etc.....that come NOT from the Pertronix kit itself.....but from the WIDE variation in machine work on distributor shaft cams and points plates over the eons of production.
I think I listed a while back at least 6 different styles of machining to just type 3 and 4 D-jet and L-jet fuel injection system distributor cams. A lot of those same parts are used in 205ps for bus as well.
The Pertronix module installation will also always require a change in distributor body timing position...and can be picky on coil resistance. Things to check
So short of just straight up defective parts....the biggest issue with Pertronix...is that its rarely a five minute drop in mod. If you treat it like it is......you can have less than stellar results.
The vast majority.....of people I have PERSONALLY spoken to ahout Pertronix issues....usually did not fit and finish tuning of the rings and points plate on install.....and only a very few actually found a no-go defect.
So I mentioned all of the vacuum and electrical checks above....because of this point:
If you were running your engine....any engine actually....on 40+ year old sketchy wiring....and/or....a lot of small less than perfect seals and ignition parts..........your engine has been adjusted to work nominally..... around all of those inconsistencies.
Now you put in a "clean" harness....with cleaner signals.....for which the engine is not adjusted to use......and are expecting improvement?
I hsve said this many times before with regard to fuel injection harnesses.....and for that matter.....any fuel injection components..........
DO NOT....replace specific parts.....with NEW parts....if all associated/connected parts.....are not ......FIRST.....made perfect, replaced or very carefullly checked and qualified.
Why?......because if you put a new part in.....say....like a new wiring harness.....and it runs less than correctly..........how the hell are you really going to know which part is actually causing it to not run well???????
Also....even if everything is perfect.....you are now going to have to go through normal tune up.....adjusting idle, timing and AFM bypass to work with the minor changes that having cleaner EFI signal has made to the system....if it made any difference at all.
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Ray it is hit and miss from what I read. I am not making these things up.
From Pertronix FAQ
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PerTronix Ignitor and Ignitor II will work with many aftermarket Electronic Fuel Injected (EFI) systems. As long as the EFI system can be triggered with a square wave signal from coil negative it will work with the Ignitor or Ignitor II. Some EFI systems just call this a points signal. Some EFI system's needs a sine wave signal from something like a magnetic pick up distributor to be triggered. We also over these type distributors for many engine applications. Most all EFI system will work our Digital HP box for maximum performance. From the Digital HP box we offer a 5-volt square signal, which will trigger most EFI systems. I'm sorry the Ignitor III will not work with a EFI system because of the multiple strikes that happen on coil negative. You could add our digital HP box to allow the Ignitor III to work your EFI system. Or switch the Ignitor III to our Ignitor or Ignitor II systems. Ignition General Help, Ignitor Application Inquiry |
From a verified purchaser at Amazon with an Bosch L-jet:
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Product not configured for my Bosch distributor as advertised, required changes to my equipment and re-routing in engine bay, ingenuity & hassle in general. And some of the internals of the distributor need to be removed, ground down and replaced in order to clear the spinning magnet. Then the fuel injection system needed re-tuning, to my surprise. Not a big deal but unexpected, a little puzzling. Now engine runs 10-15 centigrade degrees hotter, doesn't idle as smoothly as with the points setup: more odd. Pertronix says one of the advantages of their product is a much steeper (faster) build and collapse of spark. This was attractive, seemed to make sense. People who seem more knowledgeable than me say that Pertronix has effectively extended the firing time (spark duration) to more or less fill that whole time when the old, conventional spark curve was building up and collapsing down in a smooth curve (like the cross-section of a speed bump) with their square-cornered, full-on extended spark for the full duration. Sounds great, might give better power and more mileage but definitely results in hotter head temperatures: not so sure I like that part. Engine runs about the same on the road -- certainly not stunningly better/faster/louder or anything else;maybe a little less sweet somehow. First fuel fill surprised me by giving about 40% REDUCED mileage. I'll leave it installed for awhile and see what more I can learn, but.......... |
From CIP1 re Ignitor III:
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Please Note: The Pertronix Ignitor III will NOT work on fuel injected engines. |
Samba thread:
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Mark70baja Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 am
Both of the guys I've spoken with at Pertronix tell me they make "nothing" for either the federal or CA 2.0 models except wires. I keep hearing that it's been done. One guy in Oregon, who rebuilds distributors, told me that he could make it work. But after speaking with him I have serious doubts. And then there is the, "no guarantee" part.
Glad I finally got the burning up points thing resolved. |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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SGKent wrote: |
Ray it is hit and miss from what I read. I am not making these things up.
From Pertronix FAQ
Quote: |
PerTronix Ignitor and Ignitor II will work with many aftermarket Electronic Fuel Injected (EFI) systems. As long as the EFI system can be triggered with a square wave signal from coil negative it will work with the Ignitor or Ignitor II. Some EFI systems just call this a points signal. Some EFI system's needs a sine wave signal from something like a magnetic pick up distributor to be triggered. We also over these type distributors for many engine applications. Most all EFI system will work our Digital HP box for maximum performance. From the Digital HP box we offer a 5-volt square signal, which will trigger most EFI systems. I'm sorry the Ignitor III will not work with a EFI system because of the multiple strikes that happen on coil negative. You could add our digital HP box to allow the Ignitor III to work your EFI system. Or switch the Ignitor III to our Ignitor or Ignitor II systems. Ignition General Help, Ignitor Application Inquiry |
From a verified purchaser at Amazon with an Bosch L-jet:
Quote: |
Product not configured for my Bosch distributor as advertised, required changes to my equipment and re-routing in engine bay, ingenuity & hassle in general. And some of the internals of the distributor need to be removed, ground down and replaced in order to clear the spinning magnet. Then the fuel injection system needed re-tuning, to my surprise. Not a big deal but unexpected, a little puzzling. Now engine runs 10-15 centigrade degrees hotter, doesn't idle as smoothly as with the points setup: more odd. Pertronix says one of the advantages of their product is a much steeper (faster) build and collapse of spark. This was attractive, seemed to make sense. People who seem more knowledgeable than me say that Pertronix has effectively extended the firing time (spark duration) to more or less fill that whole time when the old, conventional spark curve was building up and collapsing down in a smooth curve (like the cross-section of a speed bump) with their square-cornered, full-on extended spark for the full duration. Sounds great, might give better power and more mileage but definitely results in hotter head temperatures: not so sure I like that part. Engine runs about the same on the road -- certainly not stunningly better/faster/louder or anything else;maybe a little less sweet somehow. First fuel fill surprised me by giving about 40% REDUCED mileage. I'll leave it installed for awhile and see what more I can learn, but.......... |
From CIP1 re Ignitor III:
Quote: |
Please Note: The Pertronix Ignitor III will NOT work on fuel injected engines. |
Samba thread:
Quote: |
Mark70baja Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 am
Both of the guys I've spoken with at Pertronix tell me they make "nothing" for either the federal or CA 2.0 models except wires. I keep hearing that it's been done. One guy in Oregon, who rebuilds distributors, told me that he could make it work. But after speaking with him I have serious doubts. And then there is the, "no guarantee" part.
Glad I finally got the burning up points thing resolved. |
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Taken in order:
1. As I STATED......in not so many words......I was speaking of the BASIC Pertronix module.
NOT....the Pertronix 2 or 3.
And....right along what Pertronix stated in the excerpt you posted......read that excerpt carefully.
The vast majority of issues with Pertronix and stock injection...happen with Pertronix 2 and 3.....not the Pertronix 1
The Pertronix 1 is a magnetic pickup. I have had no issues with L-jet with this system. That does not mean that there are not probahly some late L-jet systems that will have issues with it....but those that I have put it on in 412 and 914...early basic L-jet....have had no issues with Pertronix 1.
And.....there are 6 major variants of L-jet....and a total of about 11 variants if you look at some of the lkcense built versions from Japan....so yes there could be some issues.....but for the most part...with basic L-jet.....there are no real issues.
2. From Amazon from a verified purchaser using Bosch L-jet........uh.....which of the 6 main versions was this person using?
And.....also as stated.....there are so many variations in distributor design, casting, machining......that its not surprising that SOMETHING would need to be ground down or tuned.....but only an IDIOT would grind the distributor. You grind the Pertronix bracket.....not the distributor...... On many cars....and not even speaking just ACVW.....both Pertronix and compufire had bracket fit issues....mostly with screw locations....but many times also with points plate and clocking locations of advance cans.
Also....most people who have to start wholesale grinding.....I usually find they ordered the wrong unit. There are difgetent variations for mechanical and vacuum distributors......
And.....for sure the engine will have to be retuned for timing. 100% of all engines I have installed a points replacement module in...needed at bare minimum.....timing and idle re-set. To not do so.....or not understand why....is the issue of the owner/mechanic and not the Pertronix.
And.....this says it all. There is "0" way a Pertronix module can cause 10-15° head temp being hotter.....unless during the timing "retuning" the owner screwed something up. And....add to that....10-15° temp difference is a stupid reply. You can have twice that just with a change in ambient temps or atmospheric pressure.
What I see is the usual .....thinks its a 100% drop in mod. The stated need for re-routing anx ingenuity????? Really?.....for a points module? Like Pertronix 1?
Doubtful. A complete Pertronix distributor....maybe so....but that not what one should be using in a stock injected VW bus in the first place.
3. The reply from CIP1......is BS. It WILL work on fuel injected engines.....just not bus with early L-jet....AND......AGAIN.....thats a Pertronix 3.....not what we are speaking of here.
4. The reply from Pertronix about not making anything for Federal of Ca 2.0 except,wires.
Possible. As I noted....many versions of L-jet. However.....without going to that thread....sre we speaking of P-1....or complete distributors?
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Everything works well until you have to walk one time when it doesn't. The guy who handled rattlesnakes was safe for years until he met one that hit above the boot line. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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otiswesty Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 1729 Location: Portland
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Thanks for the detailed responses. I do not have Pertronix or Megasquirt. Just stock L-jet with stock dizzy and points. The only thing that isn't old stock is the cam, heads, and con rods. I have gone through many of the suggested items and will continue to trouble shoot based on your suggestions.
I'm stuck driving my 1982 Mercedes 280 until this is sorted, which is cool. It needs some love too. _________________ 1978 Sage Green P22 Westfalia
1989 T3 Syncro Single cab
Just a regular guy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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you want to do a smoke test to see if there are any vacuum leaks. The most common error I make when hooking my engine back up is forgetting to plug in the AFM. Also - some people forget the ground wire on the double relay. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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otiswesty Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 1729 Location: Portland
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Not sure what the leads in yellow go to. Should they be grounded?
I have a query out to Kyle also.
The brown circled lead is to my engine grounding tab near cyl #3.
_________________ 1978 Sage Green P22 Westfalia
1989 T3 Syncro Single cab
Just a regular guy |
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SamboSamba22 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015 Posts: 2772 Location: Benton, Arkansas
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Those are for a throttle switch, which was mounted on the throttle body until the FI changed a little in mid-76. If you have a later model, tuck them out of the way and thank Kyle for making one universal harness instead of splitting part numbers and making each harness custom.
Did any weird ‘79 setups have those switches? I’ve only seen them on earlier FI buses.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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SamboSamba22 wrote: |
otiswesty wrote: |
Not sure what the leads in yellow go to. Should they be grounded?
I have a query out to Kyle also.
The brown circled lead is to my engine grounding tab near cyl #3.
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This is Kyle’s wiring harness? |
No kidding? Using a split loom covering? Are there really no boots on the connector ends?
I still love my homemade one from this thread. Has held up without issue using the shrink covering. _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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THall Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 324 Location: Verona, WI
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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My guess is that's not a KYLE harness.
I have one, and it wasn't constructed like that. _________________ '78 Westy - 2.0 FI |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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That looks like the same picture of the wiring harnesses found on KYLE's website:
http://kyleautomotivespecialties.com/76-79-bus/ |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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This has been covered before... Each individual wire has a silicone grommet/insert in the plug itself to keep contaminants out. His website has an option if you’d like to add the stock style boots too for an extra cost.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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asiab3 wrote: |
This has been covered before... Each individual wire has a silicone grommet/insert in the plug itself to keep contaminants out. His website has an option if you’d like to add the stock style boots too for an extra cost.
Robbie |
It has been covered before but I have yet to see anyone post a pic that included boots and that didn't use a split loom covering. _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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ivwshane wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
This has been covered before... Each individual wire has a silicone grommet/insert in the plug itself to keep contaminants out. His website has an option if you’d like to add the stock style boots too for an extra cost.
Robbie |
It has been covered before but I have yet to see anyone post a pic that included boots and that didn't use a split loom covering. |
Those are the extra cost options. And these are VW hobbyists we’re talking about.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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greenbeetle74 Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 28 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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I rebuild my own FI harness last year. Kyle's was too expensive for me.
It wasn't the price of the harness only, but also shipping and duties to Europe on top.
Now I'm very happy with my new FI harness. The engine runs very smooth and I was suprised by the improved gas mileage since my new harness.
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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greenbeetle74 wrote: |
I rebuild my own FI harness last year. Kyle's was too expensive for me.
It wasn't the price of the harness only, but also shipping and duties to Europe on top.
Now I'm very happy with my new FI harness. The engine runs very smooth and I was suprised by the improved gas mileage since my new harness.
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That looks pretty clean. What did you use for sheathing? _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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greenbeetle74 Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 28 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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ivwshane wrote: |
greenbeetle74 wrote: |
I rebuild my own FI harness last year. Kyle's was too expensive for me.
It wasn't the price of the harness only, but also shipping and duties to Europe on top.
Now I'm very happy with my new FI harness. The engine runs very smooth and I was suprised by the improved gas mileage since my new harness.
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That looks pretty clean. What did you use for sheathing? |
@ivwshane:
I used Techflex Insultherm and Techflex Nylon Multi sleeving. Both are high temperature and Oil/Fuel resistant. These products are designed for automotive applications. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Improving FI harness or reinventing the wheel? (completed) |
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Yes....TechFlex is one of several companies that make flexible, expandable braided sheathing in many flavors.....high temp, EMI shielding, sealed....meaning silicone and/or elastomer sheathed....some with end cap/cut end plugging solutions.....and most available in "non-split".
Its "what to use" for sheathing when you realize being factory "visually" correct is meaningless and actual performance is everything.
After rereading this three year old thread.....a comment or two. I have been working on Bosch/vw injection systems for about 40 years now. Some of the observations early in this thread kind of come about from only getting into these systems.....in the last few years...when a lot of what people say is based upon what they know....of more modern injection.
The comment that VW set the bar low on these harnesses......is incorrect. What you see connector wise.....in the L-jet system......is a HUGE advancement over what came before....and was actually Bosch.....taking advice from AM0 and using some techniques and parts from the Aerospace industry.
The harness sheathing materials and boots.....for auto....are working in a totally different environment than aerospace and needed totally different materials, temp ranges and sealing......and....were pretty much working at the limits of available and practical affordability for the era.
At that point in time....there was nothing better. And if you look closely at what utter crap GM foisted upon the world all the way through the 90s......you will take a different point of view of VW/Bosch.
That being said......to see some of the exact sheathing and sealing techniques being held/used by VW through and into the 90s when they already had better material advancements by the mid 80s.....was purely either a money saving move by upper management but just as equally likely...lazy engineering. Ray |
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