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Bootleg VW - where it came from?
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

One of the cool things that early Type 3 owners get to tell about their cars history is that its not supposed to be here. Any type 3 prior to 1965 was considered a Gray Market car.

What does that mean? Its a VW - (and this does include all VW's at that time - especially the 60's and 70's) that has options and or a body style that was never officially imported into the United States as part of VWoA DOT and or Federal agreements.

Most of us know this story. Its synonymous for T34 and notchback owners for sure. but there are may more VW's that will come up from time to time with oddball variations and not seen in the US. I had fun while living in San Antonio exploring the Volksmith yards vast bus collection. Buses have an easy way to decode their origin and M codes other types do not. Within that yard, half the buses we looked at had no destination code, meaning they were meant for the home market - Germany - not to be exported. The unique thing about Volksmith is old John Whipple accumulated lots of vintage Volkswagen cars and parts. Not only that but he had a standing rule on his sales. He didn't sell cheap and he didn't let people take parts off his cars. Not just any Joe bought cars from him and he had many complete original examples to choose from. A very nice place to preform an archaeological social study of vintage VW's in the area. Especially when coupled with its proximity to three of the US Air Forces primary bases and the reason for this interesting history discovery.

As I've said, lots of us know this story, but its very cool to see the origins of this in action. These odd ball VW's are here mostly due to US Service men and women being stationed abroad, like Germany. Its 1958 and you are in the Army or Air Force serving on bases located around Wiesbaden Germany. You bring family, make a family or move there permanently. Three, six, ten years later you want change or have change decided for you to move to San Antonio. All your worldly goods you want moved gets moved for you - and that includes the 1963 T34 Ghia your wife absolutely adores.

This has been repeated many, many times with bugs, ghias, T3's and lots of buses.

I was watching a Pathe' clip I've seen several times and recently clipped a shot of a Wiesbaden US Military PX's parking lot. In the vid it starts at 2:07 and is a clear shot of bustling American in action abroad. Its fun to see and imagine how many of those many VW's and any other cool cars made their way back here when these service people came back stateside.

The whole vid is a slice of apple pie at the time in Germany. Direct background to the story we often hear about how these cars we love got to the US.


https://www.britishpathe.com/video/american-army-in-germany/query/Germany+military+base

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

That's pretty cool. One thing I haven't been able to figure out maybe you have. Did the service members have to go to a dealership to buy there cars? I got my birth certificate for my car back in 85 or 86 and it is limited in what it tells me, and I can't find any information for dealerships in Kaiserslautern in the early 60's.
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

axeman569 wrote:
That's pretty cool. One thing I haven't been able to figure out maybe you have. Did the service members have to go to a dealership to buy there cars? I got my birth certificate for my car back in 85 or 86 and it is limited in what it tells me, and I can't find any information for dealerships in Kaiserslautern in the early 60's.


Have to? I doubt it. Just like today. Your buddy sold off to the next guy in line, you could of gone to the dealer or any other form of new or used car outlet.

I sold my 64 notch to a Marine in early 2000's. It resurfaced about four years later for sale in the back of a rental house with a seized motor. The house was a rental for Marines, the car had been passed from Marine, to Marine till she blew an O ring. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

I just meant for the original buyer. Mine was bought new by a service member and brought home when he was stationed back in the States. I don't know if the Military had helped service members buy cars through the Base or if the service members had to buy them through a dealer.

My Notchback was found in a small town in Az. It was between Phoenix and Las Vegas. Guy was coming home from Vegas when he broke down in this little town. The shop agreed to fix it and he would return to pay for repairs. The shop rebuilt the motor and sent him the bill. He told them to keep it. We found it and brought it home in April of 1985. It has been in a garage ever since
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
...had been passed from Marine, to Marine till she blew an O ring. Rolling Eyes


We're still talking about the car, right?
Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

My current and only 412...is a gray market car!....I had been looking for a two-door coupe with a four-speed...for about 6-8 years from about the time I realized that the two door coupe was the ONLY type 4 car that came to North America....meaning including Canada....with a four speed transmission.

It was not offered by the dealer at all.

This means that all 2 door type 4 coupes....were "gray market". They either came in from Canada....or the buyer/owner picked it up in Germany or Europe.

I found mine by accidental word of mouth. A small but busy VW shop in Avondale/Atlanta Georgia....I used to drop by monthly and would always ask the old man/owner...."seen any type 4 two doors for sale?"

He would say...never. So they were going out of business and selling off a few parts and I came by...and I did not ask. As I was paying him for some parts he said..."hey...did you ever find your two door?"

I said no. I have never even seen one. He says...."I think I saw one a while back peeking out from underneath a carport out near Stone Mountain near this road"....I'm like...whatever. But you know I went to check anyway... Wink

And dang...there it was. Had not moved in 10 years. Complete...seized engine....4 speed....and...a German tourist plate and country of origin plate. Razz

And in the back seat was a cardboard box. In that box ...was every document ever generated on that car.
End of assembly line printout. Complete service history. all manuals and emissions manuals, Radio tags and receipt for the dealer in Frankfurt removing the Sapphire and putting in a Blaupunkt Wolfsburg 3 AM/shortwave...both still in the car.
Plates from France, Norway, Georgia. The original insurance documents....and the VW dealer travel guide book with complete maps of all of Europe and all dealers and service bureaus...with the Berlin wall prominently marked .....and...shipping documents and pro-forma out of Oslo Norway.

And this is why its relevant to this thread. The car was bought originally by a Royal Canadian Airforce sergeant who had to get a pay voucher from the base exchange....got those documents.
He drove it for while and sold it to an American school teacher who drove it in France for a few months....then drove and ferried to Norway for a few months...then shipped it back to the US and sold it to a serviceman in South Carolina....who moved to Atlanta...and let his idiot son drive it sometime around 1982....who let it run low on oil and never adjusted it and it dropped a valve.

This guys son lets me look at it....and did not even notice I was driving a beat up 1973 412 four door with a freshly smashed...irreparable front end (long story)...he says...." I guess its for sale but it ain't going for free....I gotta have $300 or no deal".

Rolling Eyes Laughing ...so I slowly say....well thats a lot of cash for a car with a seized engine....but let me go check my bank account. If I have enough money I'll be back in 30 minutes. I broke speed laws on the way to the bank.

Went out and pulled $300 from the teller machine....paid the guy. Spent $50 and towed it back to my place. I spent two days swapping engine and various parts.

Drove by on Monday to pick up the title....and honked the horn at him on his porch. His eyes bulged....and I laughed all the way home.

I put another 150k on that car...and its under long term restoration.

Gray Market!
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

axeman569 wrote:
I just meant for the original buyer. Mine was bought new by a service member and brought home when he was stationed back in the States. I don't know if the Military had helped service members buy cars through the Base or if the service members had to buy them through a dealer.

My Notchback was found in a small town in Az. It was between Phoenix and Las Vegas. Guy was coming home from Vegas when he broke down in this little town. The shop agreed to fix it and he would return to pay for repairs. The shop rebuilt the motor and sent him the bill. He told them to keep it. We found it and brought it home in April of 1985. It has been in a garage ever since



Ray great story - axeman you too. I could only imagine they had several ways to sell a GI a car. Assistance or not. Everyone wants and wanted then to make a buck.
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Jason "notchboy" Weigel
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

I love to hear the background stories. They make the car so much more than it is. Gives it a life of its own.

What was going on in events around that video of the armed forces base in 1966?

Over in England, the Dirty Dozen was being filmed. Rout 66 was largely replaced by the Interstate 40 and Star Trek debuted.


Link


Link


Link


So in 1967 after settling into your new home with your funny looking 1964 T34, you drove down the I-40 two exits to the new movie theater and watched the Dirty Dozen. That night you come home to catch the kids passed out watching some weird sci-fi on the boob toob.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

When I pulled the gas tank on my March 65 Square; it was marked "USA" on the bulkhead, in the same yellow grease pencil used to specify colors, options, etc. on the assembly line.

A birth certificate might help clarify how/why a US-spec 65 came to be.
It's been speculated that it may have been a Tourist Delivery import or a dealer demo to promote the upcoming US release of the Type 3.
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

BSQUARE wrote:
When I pulled the gas tank on my March 65 Square; it was marked "USA" on the bulkhead, in the same yellow grease pencil used to specify colors, options, etc. on the assembly line.

A birth certificate might help clarify how/why a US-spec 65 came to be.
It's been speculated that it may have been a Tourist Delivery import or a dealer demo to promote the upcoming US release of the Type 3.


I am "betting" that this is the case.....that it was built to order either for direct shipment or tourist pick up.......and not a dealer program car. Being so it may have been marked all the way through through assembly for any little custom accessories or for any point of delivery differences.

I will have to go through my notes....and bear in mind mine is a type 4.....but from dim memory there were a few items found over the years that turned out to be US spec only. In fact there is an M code in type 4 that lists a North America package (as well as a couple of other countries).....also keeping in mind that it was model year 71 and up only.

But that North America package changed a little as time progressed.....like in late 71 or so it picked up the engine PCV system requirement. Other earlier items were differences in the emergency flasher system and required mirrors, seat belts etc. Nothing visually major.....but US spec stuff.

Not sure what they would have had for a 1965 type 3. Would be interesting to know! Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

Also safety glass, MPH speedo, different parking light circuitry, all-red taillights, maybe the fuel evap system (not sure when Europe adopted that requirement).
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Also safety glass, MPH speedo, different parking light circuitry, all-red taillights, maybe the fuel evap system (not sure when Europe adopted that requirement).


Yes.....and again...this is type 4 I am posting...but here is a collage of the US specific M-code/equipment specs from 968 to August of 1972.

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I can't for the life of me remember if there wer type 4 specific details like Iv am about to describe...but in the type 4 cars....the chassis were made kind of universal. They had the stampings past about 1970...for virtually any model.

There are stampings already in the chassis...that simply need to be knocked out...for left hand drive, power brake, extra heater, hydraulic clutch mounting and lines or automatic...knock outs or access holes for fuel tank vapor lines or not...and even behind the rear seat there are steel thread mounts for pop out windows on the 2 door and for shoulder harness seat belts.

I can see a chassis being marked with grease pencil to remind line workers to knock out chassis holes and add tubes for any particular spec.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

BSQUARE wrote:
When I pulled the gas tank on my March 65 Square; it was marked "USA" on the bulkhead, in the same yellow grease pencil used to specify colors, options, etc. on the assembly line.

A birth certificate might help clarify how/why a US-spec 65 came to be.
It's been speculated that it may have been a Tourist Delivery import or a dealer demo to promote the upcoming US release of the Type 3.



I had a 66 Squareback that I bought from the original owner. He worked for Raytheon and lived in Italy when he bought his Delta green 66 square via Tourist Delivery program. He and his wife drove it all over Italy for a year or so then the arrangement was that someone came and got it, swapped necessary accessories to north american spec and drove it to the port to be shipped to USA (Framingham MA) where I found it. Car came with incredible amount of paperwork even repair costs when the person bringing it to be shipped to the US had an accident in it Shocked .

It also has "US" in chalk on the bulkhead behind the fuel tank when I removed it.

My notch was brought to the East coast in early 2000's from San Diego. I assume it was from a service person but not sure.

My t34 was first delivered to Japan but is LHD & has North american features like marker deletes and red tails on birth cert.

I just found a 73 Bay and the original owner worked for the air-force here in MA and he had it shipped to Europe and drove all over then shipped back on the tax payer's dime.

such a cool program really

-Lucas
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

All but 2 of my notchbacks came from France. Each had the French VIN tag along with the OG VIN plates in the front. The other two came out of Canada and I had been told by the 1st Canadian notch prior owner that he walked into the dealership and asked specifically for a 1500 as they did not have literature on them. Once he stated what he wanted, they ordered it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

Wow! Thanks for posting the photos and link. I was born at the hospital on base. I remember my mom taking us shopping at the PX.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
BSQUARE wrote:
When I pulled the gas tank on my March 65 Square; it was marked "USA" on the bulkhead, in the same yellow grease pencil used to specify colors, options, etc. on the assembly line.

A birth certificate might help clarify how/why a US-spec 65 came to be.
It's been speculated that it may have been a Tourist Delivery import or a dealer demo to promote the upcoming US release of the Type 3.


I am "betting" that this is the case.....that it was built to order either for direct shipment or tourist pick up.......and not a dealer program car. Being so it may have been marked all the way through through assembly for any little custom accessories or for any point of delivery differences.

I will have to go through my notes....and bear in mind mine is a type 4.....but from dim memory there were a few items found over the years that turned out to be US spec only. In fact there is an M code in type 4 that lists a North America package (as well as a couple of other countries).....also keeping in mind that it was model year 71 and up only.

But that North America package changed a little as time progressed.....like in late 71 or so it picked up the engine PCV system requirement. Other earlier items were differences in the emergency flasher system and required mirrors, seat belts etc. Nothing visually major.....but US spec stuff.

Not sure what they would have had for a 1965 type 3. Would be interesting to know! Ray


Yes, the US (or sometimes "VS" in the vernacular) behind the tank shows it was a Tourist Delivery built for a US specific end destination. Because of its extended use in Europe, though, it was fitted with Eurospec lights and speedo for use there, then reconverted before being shipped.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

vwfye wrote:
All but 2 of my notchbacks came from France. Each had the French VIN tag along with the OG VIN plates in the front. The other two came out of Canada and I had been told by the 1st Canadian notch prior owner that he walked into the dealership and asked specifically for a 1500 as they did not have literature on them. Once he stated what he wanted, they ordered it.


This could be done in USA as well. My Type 34 came from the VW dealer in Salem according to the paperwork trail. My uncle Bob Kuhn (R.B. Kuhn, Inc.) was a dealer in Ohio and you could buy Type 3s before they were specifically available here if you asked. .. sort of like knowing about "Animal Style" at In N Out.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

I have no history of my 65 Notch, other than it came from DFW Texas area, and was rusty. I bought it off e-bay in 1999. I was high bidder, but reserve was not met. I offered a 100 more (which was the reserve price) and he took it. I wasn't looking for a factory sunroof car, but snatched it up anyway. It was a bonus and a curse, since it caused roof rust.

My old 71 Notch was a Canadian car though, and VERY rusty.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

Type 3 VW's that were sold prior to 66, Tourist delivery cars and under table US dealers are three topics in themselves. Especially the tourist delivery. Laughing

Here in San Diego, Dave loves 62 notchback was sold at a dealer here in OB I believe. I met an old duffer, Charlie Hassle that sold me my first side draft set up. It was off his 63 notch that he fanageled a German dealer to sell him and several other T3 & T34's back in the day.

Dlglobal1 - sweet birth story Shocked Laughing Glad you could connect with that.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Bootleg VW - where it came from? Reply with quote

My old '65 Squareback was tourist delivery US-spec. One of the features was M249, a "detuned" 1500S with flat top pistons instead of domed to lower the compression and allow the use of low octane gas. Later VW repurposed the code M249 for the automatic trans.

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