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Crooked cylinder head studs
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

If it were mine I would not use that case or sell it to any one else. Way better engine cases are out there for sure.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

First off I am assuming that this is just a basic stock engine rebuild/refresh. My views on it are based as such.

If these misaligned/bent studs had caused a problem it would have reared it's ugly head long before the re-assembly stage in bad sealing on one end or the other of the cylinders, broken or pulled studs. If the cylinders slide reasonably freely over the studs once the studs are tweaked a bit and the heads torque up and seal properly, what could possibly go bad from there?

Also, he has spent the money on machining and likely new bearings, the case is on it's last align bore so just put it together and use it up before you throw it away. This is not brain surgery on your favorite Aunt. It's just an ordinary engine.

If it's going to be a rev to the moon, turbo pressured to the eyeballs, run hard engine then of course you would fine a better case.
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

If this is the BIGGEST problem with the whole engine, then it's probably going to work great, for a long time.
It's the problems you don't know about that will bite you.
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hylomatt Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

@vwracerdave, can you tell me more about why you consider over 40/40 to be a junker? Or what you meant if I've restated that inaccurately?
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

@oprn, i appreciate your input. the case would go in my ghia and the engine would see around-town usage and interstate as well, turning around 4k-4.5k. nothing crazy but it would be operating at it's limit some of the time.

what are your thoughts about that?
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

Also, and update. I've disassembled the engine again and I'm taking the case to my guy to see if he can fix by redrilling and using larger inserts. It appears to have 12mm inserts already. We'll see what he can do.
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jpaull
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

Maybe they can save it yet😊
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

hylomatt wrote:
@vwracerdave, can you tell me more about why you consider over 40/40 to be a junker? Or what you meant if I've restated that inaccurately?


DO NOT spend any money putting more band-aids on this case. Spend the money on another case.

I won't use a case cut more than 40/40. I won't build anything more then a 1600 or a very mild 1776, with any case that has had the thrust cut any amount. When you bore the case or cut the thrust the case has already been damaged and it's life used up. The pounding and the heat cycles have damaged the metal structure. As I said I might use a 60/80 case to build a 1600 for a sandrail to go play around in, but I would not consider using it in any street engine I plan on driving long distances from home. With a 60/80 case you are building an engine with 80% of it's life already used up. Just because somebody sells bearings for tripple cut bores and duble cut thrusts DOES NOT mean it is a good ideal to use them.

Take the time to read what Gene Berg said about line bored cases. I will caution you there are people that bash everything Berg wrote so read it and form your own opinion.
www.geneberg.com
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Cases%20and%20Related%20Parts&cPath=22
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

I agree with Dave that a mag case has only so much life.
But the size of a hole does not directly have anything to do with it.

You can have a LOW mileage case cut .080 over, because idiots.

If all the machine work was perfect, and the engine properly tuned and maintained, then no case would live long enough to need a second line bore, but that would only be 20 years max.
OR, it's simply about time. Even if a VW engine was built 40 years ago and NEVER run, it would need to be line bored by now. Because both the bearing alloy, and magnesium itself are alloys subject to creep.

You can put in solid 12x1.5 inserts, then drill and tap them to be whatever hole and angle you want. Maybe fix a few of the worst ones. Sure would be a big waste of time to do them all.
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

Looking at the studs made me dizzy. Was it machined on an incline? Laughing
Sorry, had to put that there - low hanging fruit and all.

The case can be fixed if you can find bigger inserts and a leveled milling machine.

Also, to me and very oversized linebored case is a 411 mains waiting to come out. Very Happy

It is not the size of the linebore but the accuracy of the cut. You can use a case till you cannot find anymore bearings for it.
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QRP
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

since you already got the short block together.
I would put the cylinders and heads on ( no pistons or stuff like that just cylinders and heads ) then torque them to spec and then see what it looks like, if it looks like everything flattens out and looks good after that then send it!
put it together and run it.
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hylomatt Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

@QRP - I'm afraid that given a number of heat cycles, this would encourage case warpage. The stud threads aren't pulling all of their weight equally and if something starts to give by way of warpage, the heads and cylinders begin to loosen up as the studs and case begin to make compromises and this also warps my cylinder mating windows.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

At this point, I'm thinking of junking the case and considering this a lesson learned the hard way. I've stripped it all down and am looking at the cases available in the classifieds, new and used.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

hylomatt wrote:
@oprn, i appreciate your input. the case would go in my ghia and the engine would see around-town usage and interstate as well, turning around 4k-4.5k. nothing crazy but it would be operating at it's limit some of the time.

what are your thoughts about that?

I see no issue with that kind of usage.

At one time I used to obsess about getting everything perfect on an engine too and I was just doing basic stock builds. Then one day I realized that while it would be ideal to put both heads on and torque all the nuts at exactly the same time to insure totally equal tension on the case and no chance of warpage that I had a problem, not the engine! It's called excessive compulsive behavior. There is medication for that I am told.

It ran like that before and you didn't know the difference, it will run like that again. Put it together, put it in the car and drive it like you said you would before it drives you crazy. The only thing I would do different is to retorque the heads after a few thousand miles and check for compression leaks.

Save all the worry and fussing for that 22 liter, 6500 rpm all the tricks engine you want to build some day. That is the one that needs special detailing.
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Ebel
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

I was going to say what modok said. It sounds like the linebore wasnt really a wear issue. So the case could still be ok. But. With shoddy inserts something else might be shoddy. Like the linebore being on center or straight. But if you want to use it Id measure everything I could and then get a quote on new bigger inserts being installed. I personally wouldnt pay anyone to touch it without making sure it was ok as far as I could measure. But. If it ran before it could probably run again. Machining isnt cheap. Id personally quote you a price to fix it that would hopefully make you run away. But I do production runs. If you find a guy set up to do vw cases on a mill already it might be reasonable. If anyone says theyll do it with A drill press Id run. Needs to have holes done with an endmill or bored if someone was really ambitious. I think I saw Roy at Mofocco said he had a Cnc setup to do it. Might be a good idea to ask him what it would cost. But if you need custom oversized inserts it might cost more then its worth.
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hylomatt Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

For now, I've purchased a 1600 SP. The crooked-stud case is stripped and sitting on the floor. Maybe I won't toss it in the trash but I'm not going to build with it. Not this time at least. The SP sat for a bit and had the filthiest oil screen I've ever seen. I'm going to take it apart, clean it, replace the oil cooler, reseal, rebuild. I heard it run for 5 mins and it sounds fine but that much debris is bothersome so I have to clean it.


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Erik G
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Crooked cylinder head studs Reply with quote

looks like it was run without air filters
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