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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:49 am Post subject: A/C recharge - heads up! |
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Had to recharge the A/C, been about 2 years...buy a couple cans, get home, first can isn't going. Try the second not going in right either...fark, what's wrong? Is it my tool or something with the system? Seems like it's the tool, if I just try to let it vent into the atmosphere (I know, I know...) only a little tiny bit is releasing...go to the FLAPS.
Turns out the cans have changed- they now have a self-sealing top instead of a simple metal seal to pierce. If you have a filling tool that is over one year old, you now need an adaptor like this for your old tool to work.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/interdynamics-...11022603-P
Also, if you try to use your old tool on the new cans, they won't release at all, you mess up the self-sealing top and you just wasted about 20 bucks.
So, head's up!
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled  https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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Ahwahnee
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Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9810
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:37 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| Seems like the tools that pierce the side of the can would still work, unless the can size has also changed. |
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:46 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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They don't, or at least didn't for me, and that's exactly what the adaptor is for. I don't think it goes "deep" enough to break the self-sealing top.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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Ahwahnee's talking about a different kind of can adapter, a "side tap". It clamps around the can bottom and a needle pierces the side of the can. It's the one I always used in commercial shops because it's so fast, and had the added benefit of sticking out from the sides of the can so when you're finishing and just want gas you could hang the can upside down in a can of hot water to get it into the system faster.
And yes, it would work the same on the new cans.
There are newer variants but the one I used to have looked a lot like this one:
https://econosuperstore.com/itm/r134a-a-c-refriger...1-4-valve/
_________________
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Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.
Last edited by tencentlife on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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When I get through my 30# container of R134 I sell at $8 a pound, $15 if you have attitude/own a BMW , Ill have to worry about this..
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:12 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Ahwahnee's talking about a different kind of can adapter, a "side tap". It clamps around the can bottom and a needle pierces the side of the can. It's the one I always used in commercial shops because it's so fast, and had the added benefit of sticking out from the sides of the can so when you're finishing and just want gas you could hang the can upside down in a can of hot water to get it into the system faster.
And yes, it would work the same on the new cans.
There are newer variants but the one I used to have looked a lot like this one:
https://econosuperstore.com/itm/r134a-a-c-refriger...1-4-valve/ |
Yeah that's totally different. Mine looks like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FJPCJZM/ref=sspa_dk_d...6bce72e883
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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hkunstmann
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Joined: April 30, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:18 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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Is the engine running with the A/C set at high???
The system won't charge if the compressor is not engaged! It's not the tool.... |
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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Yes. I know what I'm doing and have done this before- please look up what I'm talking about. It's all charged up to 40 now because I used the adaptor.
Here's an article about this EPA mandated industry wide transition in can styles, including specifying the use of the adaptor.
http://www.rechargeac.com/self-sealing-valve
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:38 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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Yeah unfortunately AC service has become a DIY thing, refill cans and cheapo equipment are now prominently displayed spring and summer near the check-out in every FLAPS, where they formerly didn't sell any of it at all. So lots and lots more lay people being careless and releasing loads more gas into the atmosphere than in the old days, when it was a job for pro shops with the right knowledge and equipment. So they have to mandate technical changes to mitigate the growing problem, which in this case is people removing the can tap from partly full cans, which promptly release their remaining gas into the air. There's probably a few hole-dwellers around who think R134 is safe for the ozone layer, but under the Montreal Protocol it is a transition technology, still ozone depleting, just much less that R12, it still needs to be handled carefully and not wantonly released.
_________________
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:52 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| mikemtnbike wrote: |
| Had to recharge the A/C, been about 2 years... |
Dunno if you renewed the hoses in your system, if so then you really should track down your leak rather than continually topping up. If you don't own a halogen detector, you could use a dye, or take the van to a pro shop and have them sniff the fittings and such for you. They could recover your refrigerant as well if you need to open it to do a repair once you find the leaks.
As to the hoses: Ten years ago, after repairing and setting up my own and a few customers' systems only to find them all needing a top-up a year later, I decided I wouldn't service these unless the hoses were removed and rebuilt with fresh materials. With the age of the original hoses and the huge extent of these systems compared to conventional front-engined cars, the total permeation losses have become too large to accept. An automotive AC system shouldn't need a top-up for ten years, at least. There are also improved hose materials now, developed once again under regulations limiting permeation losses, so those losses will be even less than when these cars were new. They weren't bad when new by the standards of the day, but now all that stuff is way past its design life, and technology marches on.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:15 am Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| mikemtnbike wrote: |
| Had to recharge the A/C, been about 2 years... |
Dunno if you renewed the hoses in your system, if so then you really should track down your leak rather than continually topping up. |
It's on the list. May end up being something I pay somebody to do<shudder> because I don't feel like learning a new system right now...but it'll get done sooner than later.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4492
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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I discovered the same thing a couple of weeks ago while doing my annual recharge; the new cans are different and my old dispenser did not work. Had to buy another. Glad to learn the reason why they were changed.
Someday I'll replace the original hoses with barrier hose so that annual recharging is no longer required.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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They should slap a $1000 deposit on these cans , refundable on recovery, to stop these top off huffers from blowing off AC
Get the right tools or go to a pro.
An AC will go 10 years plus without charge, anything else is leaking and is an FU to the rest of us,
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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If America was real serious with emissions, you would need a license to buy the stuff.
I like it 'annual recharge'  |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| Abscate wrote: |
They should slap a $1000 deposit on these cans , refundable on recovery, to stop these top off huffers from blowing off AC
Get the right tools or go to a pro.
An AC will go 10 years plus without charge, anything else is leaking and is an FU to the rest of us, |
My dude, you think anyone cares about the future or the people who are going to live there? Saw a kid the other day with a shirt that read "my generation will change the world." Every generation does, as it turns out, but most of them make it better. Not all.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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I'm pretty certain van ownership overall is the least "green" choice I make in my life. While I 100% agree I should fix these leaks specifically, it's only one piece among many that make up that footprint.
To be clear, I know it's a piece I could remove and am actually contributing to. One of my intentions when posting this thread in the first place was that a couple of cans don't get insta-wasted like the ones I damaged.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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sciroccojim
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2008
Posts: 259
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| As to the hoses: Ten years ago, after repairing and setting up my own and a few customers' systems only to find them all needing a top-up a year later, I decided I wouldn't service these unless the hoses were removed and rebuilt with fresh materials. With the age of the original hoses and the huge extent of these systems compared to conventional front-engined cars, the total permeation losses have become too large to accept. An automotive AC system shouldn't need a top-up for ten years, at least. There are also improved hose materials now, developed once again under regulations limiting permeation losses, so those losses will be even less than when these cars were new. They weren't bad when new by the standards of the day, but now all that stuff is way past its design life, and technology marches on. |
I found out pretty quickly that those old hoses weren't going to hold refrigerant long enough to make charging worthwhile. Replaced all of my mine and I can say that it was worth it. Now I have to get around to installing a modern condenser.
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1987 Westy Camper |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| sciroccojim wrote: |
| tencentlife wrote: |
| As to the hoses: Ten years ago, after repairing and setting up my own and a few customers' systems only to find them all needing a top-up a year later, I decided I wouldn't service these unless the hoses were removed and rebuilt with fresh materials. With the age of the original hoses and the huge extent of these systems compared to conventional front-engined cars, the total permeation losses have become too large to accept. An automotive AC system shouldn't need a top-up for ten years, at least. There are also improved hose materials now, developed once again under regulations limiting permeation losses, so those losses will be even less than when these cars were new. They weren't bad when new by the standards of the day, but now all that stuff is way past its design life, and technology marches on. |
I found out pretty quickly that those old hoses weren't going to hold refrigerant long enough to make charging worthwhile. Replaced all of my mine and I can say that it was worth it. Now I have to get around to installing a modern condenser. |
My condenser (in front of the radiator) had "oil spots" in the dust (original from 1990).
I replaced it last summer with a new GoWesty condenser. (a skinny little thing! half the bulk of the OEM )
I did not replace the hoses but I did put in a can of "sealer", then recharged the system (RedTek).
We survived a trip to California in lots of 100°F+ but it was survival not "real A/C comfort".
This summer, I'm happy to report that my air conditioning system still works.
It was 85°F, not 100.
I have not measured the delta.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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sciroccojim
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Joined: March 04, 2008
Posts: 259
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: A/C recharge- head's up! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
My condenser (in front of the radiator) had "oil spots" in the dust (original from 1990).
I replaced it last summer with a new GoWesty condenser. (a skinny little thing! half the bulk of the OEM )
I did not replace the hoses but I did put in a can of "sealer", then recharged the system (RedTek).
We survived a trip to California in lots of 100°F+ but it was survival not "real A/C comfort".
This summer, I'm happy to report that my air conditioning system still works.
It was 85°F, not 100.
I have not measured the delta. |
Our big shakedown was a southern trip to catch the eclipse two years ago. We encountered 100º temps and long grades, which really tested the system. Even though the cooling system was fresh, the van ran hot on those grades with the A/C on. Seems to me that the old condenser wasn't dissipating the heat efficiently enough. On that trip, I learned that keeping the A/C set at below the coldest temp actually kept the interior cooler, as it didn't get as hot up front and the "747" fan and A/C cutoff weren't in play. I'm hoping that the new condenser will solve that problem.
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