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Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff?
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
I would be wary of mounting an electric motor vertically, most motors use bearings that are not designed to take any substantial thrust loading so the shafts have to be on a horizontal axis. Easy to correct in this case.


Ha! I did not know that. Thanks for the tip. It would indeed be pretty simple to mount it sideways! I'm also considering installing a belt driven oil pump on the engine where the A/C compressor used to be and just use that as the oil pump. Researching pros and cons for that set up too.
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
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- Front end rebuild

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Yeah I wouldn't go with a belt-driven pump, the need for trans cooling is intermittent, there's also no reason to constantly filter oil, it just amounts to a near-constant waste of work for a system that isn't constantly needed. Also the rotor-vane P/S pumps are for very high-volume high-pressure pumping of very light fluids and not well-suited to pumping heavier lubes, a lower speed spur gear or gear-rotor pump is ideal. A temp-signalled electric spur gear pump like you have is really the better choice, you can make it push lube when extra lube and cooling will benefit the gearbox and accomplish all the filtration needed during those intermittent sessions without acting as a constant parasitic loss. Plus an electric system is way simpler to design and install, as you can see to start with you have a lot of choices for pump location. Electric controls easily enable functionality you can't accomplish mechanically without much more complicated R&D. You can trim pump speed easily to establish ideal flow rates at the outlets and it will deliver the same way every time vs. a belt-driven pump whose flow is highly variable. You're on the right and better track with an electric gear pump.
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't go with a belt-driven pump, the need for trans cooling is intermittent, there's also no reason to constantly filter oil, it just amounts to a near-constant waste of work for a system that isn't constantly needed. Also the rotor-vane P/S pumps are for very high-volume high-pressure pumping of very light fluids and not well-suited to pumping heavier lubes, a lower speed spur gear or gear-rotor pump is ideal. A temp-signalled electric spur gear pump like you have is really the better choice, you can make it push lube when extra lube and cooling will benefit the gearbox and accomplish all the filtration needed during those intermittent sessions without acting as a constant parasitic loss. Plus an electric system is way simpler to design and install, as you can see to start with you have a lot of choices for pump location. Electric controls easily enable functionality you can't accomplish mechanically without much more complicated R&D. You can trim pump speed easily to establish ideal flow rates at the outlets and it will deliver the same way every time vs. a belt-driven pump whose flow is highly variable. You're on the right and better track with an electric gear pump.


And here we go! Between yours and Sodo's input, I'll keep trucking along with that 12V pump. This forum is awesome!

Right now we only have filtering for our gearbox but in the future, I'll probably add a cooler. I'll monitor those temperatures and manually control that pump in the beginning at least. The only issue I can see is that the temperature sensor I have will be inline on the hoses and having the pump ON will give better readings.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

I would not put the temp sensor inline. You will have to run the pump, to decide if you need to cool the trans. Better to have it display trans temp full-time. And then to set it up for automatic control, you will have to drill the sump anyway. I’d drill the sump 1/4NPT then adapt downward to a 1/8 sensor, that gives you the option to use a 1/4NPT unit in that hole if you ever need to.

Don’t worry for one second about magnesium drillings in your oil. Take the precautions (pressurize to blow them out). They are soft, lightweight and will be captured by your filter system almost immediately.

Soccer mom drives 100,000 miles with her tranny lubricant full of steel; you’re in a better place than her (except with a bigger engine).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The bearing in this $60 Amarine pump is a 608__ skateboard bearing, yours is at least that good.
The 608__ bearing can take an unbelievable amount of thrust load (they're saving skateboarder bacon all day long! Shocked ).
I doubt theres any thrust concern in any position for these pumps. The armature probably weighs about 8 oz.

Your mounting concerns are:
    the pump's resistance to water
    ease of plumbing
    crowding other maintenance tasks
    noise isolation
    (maybe other concerns)


When I mounted mine the concensus was that it was gonna cavitate etc, and you need check-valves to hold the prime etc. So I put my pump head at the lowest possible location (almost level with the outlet). But it was not necessary, the gear-pump can suck oil up 24 inches, maybe more. Lower is “better” - but not required. Best to consider plumbing and don’t end up with fittings located where you can’t swing a wrench. I would use the mount you built, and keep forward motion.

---- Then re-engineer the ‘final’ mount in the “best location” later (when you “know more”).....in the wintertime - not during “van season”. You're already missing prime van season. Wink

I agree with Tencent on the benefits of electric over belt driven for this application. A reversible Electric motor is real handy for filling the trans, you just reverse the polarity. You’d have to enlist Samba member xooXoox to reverse a belt driven pump. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
I would not put the temp sensor inline. You will have to run the pump, to decide if you need to cool the trans. Better to have it display trans temp full-time. And then to set it up for automatic control, you will have to drill the sump anyway. I’d drill the sump 1/4NPT then adapt downward to a 1/8 sensor, that gives you the option to use a 1/4NPT unit in that hole if you ever need to.

Don’t worry for one second about magnesium drillings in your oil. Take the precautions (pressurize to blow them out). They are soft, lightweight and will be captured by your filter system almost immediately.


Thanks for all the details! Just to be sure I understood, you're suggesting that I drill another hole somewhere in the tranny Razz I'm not sure I have the balls to do that right now, given this story I'm about to tell you!

Also, I like the idea of just using the current mount I made and redo it later. Benefit of flexible lines I guess! I was working on another pump mount yesterday and realized that my finished version would hit the engine carrier. Nothing's easy!

Anyhow, to the story now:

I just gave myself a massive fright yesterday, tinkering with all this stuff!
I was frustrated that all the fittings I purchased were 8AN when I noticed that the 2 oiling ports installed on the transaxle 6AN sized. Not too big of a deal but it's pretty crammed around the oil pump and figured I'd be better off without a 6AN/8AN adapter.
This whole project has been plagued with delay, lots of them stemming from having to buying more parts as I realized parts were missing (the latest being the throwout bearing) or discovered other things that had to be replaced. In this case, after thinking a little I figured that instead of adding adapters or changing our whole 8AN system to 6AN, I'll just unthread the 6AN ports and replace them with 8AN, easy!! WRONG...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Dang things were going slow but going well! I went to unthread the port on the gear carrier and it just started spinning. Right away, I realized that the port was threaded into a nut on the inside the of gearbox and knew that I had just made a massive f*ck up!

After a few minutes attempting to tighten the fitting back and having it just spin, I switched to a few minutes of cussing and kicking stuff. Then I called German Transaxle to get Ken's opinion on this rookie mistake of mine and waited for him to return my call. In the meantime, I got back to my psychological treatment consisting of more looking at the gear carrier, turning around cussing and kicking stuff and repeat.

A few minutes later, Tom Lengyel calls! Funny thing was that I had been trying to buy a decoupler from him and left voicemails but I later learned that he was busy camping with some of you this past weekend. Man what a great guy! We chatted for a while and I got my reality check. What I had done to that tranny was about as bad as what I thought it was though maybe wouldn't cost as much as I had feared. Tightening the fitting properly would mean ripping most of that transaxles apart just to reach it. Tom suggested that if the oiling port was straight, I could try to pull on the port while tightening it, hoping that nut in the back would catch and snug up. Our call was interrupted by Ken, also a great guy by the way, who basically confirmed everything Tom had told me. Ken confirmed that the port was indeed straight and that they chose to put a nut there because they don't think there's enough metal in the housing to just thread the hole. He also suggested that I use speed but not torque when trying to tighten the port from the outside (and I mentioned the addition of a little bit of aviation sealant if I could fit some under the port). Lastly, he mentioned that if all failed, he'd work with us to fix this honest mistake should he have to take that tranny apart. Man I hated myself for this but dang do I love this community!

So I took my drill (not impact), put a socket on, set the clutch with a screw force/torque of 1 and a speed of 2 and started trying, thinking I'd work my way up the torque numbers on my drill until it caught. 1 just didn't spin the port at all. I removed the drill and tried spinning the port by hand, nothing. It wouldn't move and 45 minutes ago, before the phone calls, I was able to move it by hand. I grabbed a ratcheting wrench and started tightening the port and it got tighter and tighter until I felt it was as tight as it should be (no torque setting on this). Our neighbors could probably hear me cussing a little while ago, then heard "oh yeah, oh yeah, heck yeah!!!!" 45 minutes later as I was tightening the port!

Dang I dodged a bullet with this one. Sure makes me slow down and question the things I'm about to do little more. I'll probably add more sealant on the outside of the port and monitor for leaks. While this is a happy ending, it's a bit defeating. This project has been a massive undertaking for a guy like me who's never worked on mechanical stuff before. I start building confidence and then stuff like this happens and reminds me that I don't know as much as I might feel I do. I guess that's all part of learning right?! I'm just happy that this little lesson is gonna cost me a $10 6AN to 8AN adapter instead of a potentially 4-digit and several days teardown.

Ok, gotta keep on moving now.
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:
Sodo wrote:
And then to set it up for automatic control, you will have to drill the sump anyway. I’d drill the sump 1/4NPT then adapt downward to a 1/8 sensor, that gives you the option to use a 1/4NPT unit in that hole if you ever need to.

Don’t worry for one second about magnesium drillings in your oil. Take the precautions (pressurize to blow them out). They are soft, lightweight and will be captured by your filter system almost immediately.


Thanks for all the details! Just to be sure I understood, you're suggesting that I drill another hole somewhere in the tranny Razz I'm not sure I have the balls to do that right now, given this story I'm about to tell you!


Drilling and threading a hole is a 'one-shot deal', the chance that you can rebound from a mistake is slim. It will be easier and cleaner to do it before you install the trans, AND before you put oil in the trans too. You should find someone to help with this, who is experienced. It's not a good "first-timer" task. Although I am TOTALLY impressed with how you tackle these other mechanical tasks as a 'first-timer', it kinda looks like you are a "natural" and well-suited to Vanagon ownership.

Another way is to epoxy a temp sender onto the outside of the trans case, below the oil level. There will be a delay in temperature reading, and the oil inside will always be hotter than the external surface of the transaxle, especially when there's airflow. Can do it as a first step, then drill/tap later.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:


Another way is to epoxy a temp sender onto the outside of the trans case, below the oil level. There will be a delay in temperature reading, and the oil inside will always be hotter than the external surface of the transaxle, especially when there's airflow. Can do it as a first step, then drill/tap later.


I have measured transaxle case surface temperature (Fluke IR gun) as high as 177F after long drives in hot weather. That is WARM.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Drilling and threading a hole is a 'one-shot deal', the chance that you can rebound from a mistake is slim. It will be easier and cleaner to do it before you install the trans, AND before you put oil in the trans too. You should find someone to help with this, who is experienced. It's not a good "first-timer" task. Although I am TOTALLY impressed with how you tackle these other mechanical tasks as a 'first-timer', it kinda looks like you are a "natural" and well-suited to Vanagon ownership.

Another way is to epoxy a temp sender onto the outside of the trans case, below the oil level. There will be a delay in temperature reading, and the oil inside will always be hotter than the external surface of the transaxle, especially when there's airflow. Can do it as a first step, then drill/tap later.


Yeah, I did a 1/8 NPT by hand on the reverse coolant manifold and that was already scary enough! But I figured the manifold isn't too hard or expensive to replace if it starts leaking. I honestly feel like I did a good job though. Only time will tell.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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For the tranny, much MUCH higher $$$ risk. I think you are right about getting help to do it.

Speaking of 1/4 NPT to 1/8 NPT, there are tons of adapters. I've been using brass but since I'm not buying dozens and dozens, would it be worth getting stainless adapter rather than brass?

And as far as tackling these things, yeah, I'm also surprised at what I start. It's almost as if I don't quite give myself a choice. Once I start it, I have to finish it. Though I have never really done anything mechanical, I have a background that does help. My uncle in LA is a metal fabricator and he used to build race cars in LA with my grandfather. I've seen him do a few things around the shop but those moments can be count on two hands. I also have an engineering background. Industrial engineering, which has nothing tangible applicable to mechanics but the engineering mindset helps. And I bought a 2009 Subaru Outback as my daily car to practice maintenance and familiarize myself with the EJ engine before doing work on the van. I had to replace the clutch on the car, and just as with the van, figured: there's no better time to figure out how to take an engine out of a car! Also just as with the van, replacing that clutch became a head gasket job and more than what was originally anticipated. Doing it once on the Subaru last summer made taking the tranny/engine out of the van much less daunting though. I guess technically I had a little bit of practice for some of it... once! If you're bored you can read about it here.

Anyhow, I'll look for help for that temperature sensor. I imagine I can find drilling location suggestions on the forum, though feel free to share an image if you already know exactly where it's best.

I have to get back to "real" paying work for the time being though. Once again, the van has to wait a little!
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
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- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:
Speaking of 1/4 NPT to 1/8 NPT, there are tons of adapters. I've been using brass but since I'm not buying dozens and dozens, would it be worth getting stainless adapter rather than brass?


I would choose a brass (or Zinc-plated steel) adapter. If you have a 304SS adapter, then if you screw a 304SS temp sender in, the "too similar SS threads" could seize.
So you will have to "know" what formulation each Stainless part is, and in the case mentioned, only screw a temp sender in of different SS, like "316".
Even then, it's a little risky.
Typically you screw 316 male fittings into into 304 females.
Stainless can send you down a wormhole, and there's no "need" to go there.

You can screw any brass or chrome-plated fitting into any SS adapter.
Sorry for all the SS confusion, this is all just to say "don't pursue SS adapters" .... and .... SS can actually ADD risk....

Brass can look funny on a car because OEMs don't use brass, they'd use a coated steel cuz it's cheaper.
I'd just use brass adapters, they're easy to get.
You can cover the brass or the zinc/steel adapter with Permatex Ultra Gray and there will be no corrosion possible.

================

That 1/8NPT thread you cut looks perfect but....it appears there needs to be a little clarification.
NPT means "National Pipe Taper" where the sealing occurs because the thread is conical, and screwed into a conical hole of proper depth, where the conical fitting fills the thread clearance and seals.

You don't tighten the NPT fitting "shoulder" down onto a copper sealing ring.

When threading NPT, you have to be careful to NOT run the tap too deep,
otherwise the hole diameter gets too big, and there is the possibility that the conical fitting will bottom out onto the shoulder, while "loose" in the conical hole.
Which you may have done here.... Shocked
Which looks "wrong" but if it doesn't leak, it's all good.

If you can remove that copper washer, and have the thread "tighten" before the shoulder bottoms out, then it's a "proper NPT thread".
If the shoulder does bottom out, just put sealer on the threads.
You will find a way to get it to seal.

I like to thread it until a fitting screws in about 75% of the length of the fitting thread.
So the shoulder of the fitting is always "above" the surface, and the sealing happens with teflon tape in the threads.
The requirement for "squareness" is "relaxed" a little with NPT.

Whereas the for the copper-sealing-washer method, the surface has to be "really square" to the bolt.

But on the bottom of your transaxle with oil above it full-time, it could be a hassle having a slow drip.
You want the thread to be the correct depth, and sealed.
My NPTs are all dry, using just teflon tape.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These two locations are fine for a sensor.
There's about an inch or more open space behind each of those holes.

Note the little brass plug.
No washer.
It seals because it's conical (tapered).
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
I would choose a brass (or Zinc-plated steel) adapter. If you have a 304SS adapter, then if you screw a 304SS temp sender in, the "too similar SS threads" could seize.
So you will have to "know" what formulation each Stainless part is, and in the case mentioned, only screw a temp sender in of different SS, like "316".
Even then, it's a little risky.
Typically you screw 316 male fittings into into 304 females.
Stainless can send you down a wormhole, and there's no "need" to go there.

You can screw any brass or chrome-plated fitting into any SS adapter.
Sorry for all the SS confusion, this is all just to say "don't pursue SS adapters" .... and .... SS can actually ADD risk....

Brass can look funny on a car because OEMs don't use brass, they'd use a coated steel cuz it's cheaper.
I'd just use brass adapters, they're easy to get.
You can cover the brass or the zinc/steel adapter with Permatex Ultra Gray and there will be no corrosion possible.

================

That 1/8NPT thread you cut looks perfect but....it appears there needs to be a little clarification.
NPT means "National Pipe Taper" where the sealing occurs because the thread is conical, and screwed into a conical hole of proper depth, where the conical fitting fills the thread clearance and seals.

You don't tighten the NPT fitting "shoulder" down onto a copper sealing ring.

When threading NPT, you have to be careful to NOT run the tap too deep,
otherwise the hole diameter gets too big, and there is the possibility that the conical fitting will bottom out onto the shoulder, while "loose" in the conical hole.
Which you may have done here.... Shocked
Which looks "wrong" but if it doesn't leak, it's all good.

If you can remove that copper washer, and have the thread "tighten" before the shoulder bottoms out, then it's a "proper NPT thread".
If the shoulder does bottom out, just put sealer on the threads.
You will find a way to get it to seal.

I like to thread it until a fitting screws in about 75% of the length of the fitting thread.
So the shoulder of the fitting is always "above" the surface, and the sealing happens with teflon tape in the threads.
The requirement for "squareness" is "relaxed" a little with NPT.

Whereas the for the copper-sealing-washer method, the surface has to be "really square" to the bolt.

But on the bottom of your transaxle with oil above it full-time, it could be a hassle having a slow drip.
You want the thread to be the correct depth, and sealed.
My NPTs are all dry, using just teflon tape.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These two locations are fine for a sensor.
There's about an inch or more open space behind each of those holes.

Note the little brass plug.
No washer.
It seals because it's conical (tapered).


Nothing's easy is it! Boy am I glad I'm sharing all this. Thanks for the SS info. It's not all that confusing. If anything, what's confusing is that my brain seems to automatically think "invest in SS and never look back!" I learned when shopping for replacement locking nuts for the transaxle to engine studs that SS is much weaker than zinc plated steel. I guess I actually did know that before from when I was annoyed at how easily my stainless steel Philips wood screws would strip so easily.

Well, I guess that temperature sensor is yet another thing to monitor. If SS is considered confusing, then I don't even want to start talking about pipe threads!!! Between metric and SAE, tapered, non tapered, etc... Now that you mention it, I think I did run that tap waaaayyy to deep (heck, might've gone all the way through). I think back then I still believed that NPT was for "National Pipe Thread." Makes so much more sense now if that tap is tapered that running it through would just create a straight thread. And if I remember well, I think I kept on going because it just seemed like it kept refining the threads (I had only threaded non-tapered holes before, mostly 1/4-20). The resistance I was feeling was the tap trying to tell me "stop!!!!" Dang it, yet another mistake!

There's quite a bit of aviation sealant in there so hopefully that holds, we'll see. I guess that if it doesn't work, I can always drill it wider and tap it correctly with a 1/4NPT and put the adapter (might as well buy 2 brass adapters).

Is that an acceptable solution? And if so, why wouldn't I tap a 1/8NPT into the transmission rather than a 1/4NPT? The sensor I have is 1/8NPT and if a hole can be made wider, why not make it the right size?
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Forward motion: I would re-tap that other sensor as you wrote, ONLY if it leaks. Or only if it is winter-time. Not during Vanagon Season.

Quote:
why wouldn't I tap a 1/8NPT into the transmission rather than a 1/4NPT? The sensor I have is 1/8NPT and if a hole can be made wider, why not make it the right size?


But if you later opt for a temp controller it may be 1/4NPT (or 1/8 BSPP or other???) the 1/4 adapter provides “options” that you can make changes without re-drilling etc. that’s the only reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Quote:
why wouldn't I tap a 1/8NPT into the transmission rather than a 1/4NPT? The sensor I have is 1/8NPT and if a hole can be made wider, why not make it the right size?


But if you later opt for a temp controller it may be 1/4NPT (or 1/8 BSPP or other???) the 1/4 adapter provides “options” that you can make changes without re-drilling etc. that’s the only reason.


Makes sense! I did have some 1/8BSP oil pressure sensor on the engine itself. I like the idea of the 1/4NPT approach, thanks!
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Guillaume and Jennifer

T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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