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tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
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 Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the pic Dave. They stick up higher than I thought. What are the downsides to them?
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1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Off topic for this solar panel thread but small downsides are that they are too heavy to lift up and down and accessing is a slight hassle (you can't reach all the latches from just one side) so only stuff I don't need to get at like parts and recovery gear go up there. In fairness, I would imagine they are way easier to use than a rocket box. The black color makes them too hot to touch in Colorado sun (I painted the top of it eventually), especially the metal lock, something low profile would create less wind drag. That would look better IMO and then there is a place to mount a solar panel  But it is very useful space and totally waterproof with air release vents built in.
There is a thread that has this a lot of other ideas, I think it is called Rooftop Storage or something. There are other brands offs available with the same dimensions but half the price. Check out that other thread if you are interested.
Dave |
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the joker
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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santa was good to the westy this year
GW 80watt setup
now just have to figuire the best way to hook it to the dual factory system system |
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iliketowalk
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2011
Posts: 614
Location: Northern CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I mounted Renogy flexible panels on a hightop using 3M 4200 Marine Polyurethane. Slightly less permanent than 5200, but still solid and approved for below waterline use. If I were to do it again I might use the 4200 to mount aluminum angle brackets and bolt / mount to that.
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1986 Weekender "Birch" |
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davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Found this photo showing a low profile cover for the front luggage rack. Similar to what I was thinking for a storage cover and solar panel mount, except ditch the bungees and use latches and more rigid material. As a cover only, it looks great.
Photo posted by Dhaavers |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| davevickery wrote: |
I'm surprised no one has come up with a frame that slots into the luggage rack cleats in the front and secures to the rear buckles using something like the GW luggage box latches.
That would give you a panel that could be angled up when you want to catch better sun, and when it was down, you could use it for secure storage. I read the solar panel IN the luggage rack thread but don't recall anything about mounting one to the luggage rack cleats.
OK now I'm just waiting to hear that someone makes them. |
There has to be lots of folks who don’t want $$ of googaws (used just for camping) displayed on their van parked on the street year-round. 100watts, Removeable, remote-able with cable, and angle-able. And you can store a 3rd panel & extension cord below, for 150w.
And lots of folks can’t or won’t drill their vans.
Routing the wires “hidden” to the battery can be done “external/temporary” too. Not ideal, but I don’t want to drill holes until I’m sure its the right place. I have enough “drillers remorse” already.
 Has anything happened with this  great idea 
(5 years ago is a long time in solar) |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9935
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: |
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There is a version of rigid 100 watt panel that is a near perfect fit inside the front luggage rack. Mine stays there with no mounting at all, doesn't move around. I think I could even stack 2 of them in there. I may mount the top one on hinges and store a second panel under it for setting up elsewhere on a long cord when camped in shade or when the van faces a wrong way for the mounted panel to be of use. Only $100 each currently.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Compact-Design-Renogy...:rk:6:pf:0
I used a file on the front corners of the frame to let it fit down lower inside the rack.
Mark
| Sodo wrote: |
There has to be lots of folks who don’t want $$ of googaws (used just for camping) displayed on their van parked on the street year-round. 100watts, Removeable, remote-able with cable, and angle-able. And you can store a 3rd panel & extension cord below, for 150w.
And lots of folks can’t or won’t drill their vans.
Routing the wires “hidden” to the battery can be done “external/temporary” too. Not ideal, but I don’t want to drill holes until I’m sure its the right place. I have enough “drillers remorse” already.
Has anything happened with this great idea
(5 years ago is a long time in solar) |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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That’s really good info for Westfalia people!!
I like the storage scenario, and maybe the extension cord stows below.
I’d like an arrangement where I can angle them both upward like a fairing, to carry the Westy-characteristic pile of firewood.
Heres some specs:
Cost: $100 each panel
Watts: 100W
Optimum amps: 5.72
Weight: 16.5lbs
Dimensions: 42.2 X 19.6 X 1.38”
Mono crystalline with diode bypass works better in partial shading than polycrystalline(?).
I have a Victron 75/10 MPPT controller - takes up to 75v at 10amps. And the MPPT may coax more of the 100w from each panel, right?
So with just the 100w panel, its “12v” and 5.72Amps. But if I remove the jumper and connect the 2nd panel it becomes “24v” and 5.72Amps.
Does this look like a good plan?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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For what it's worth I have two 100w on the roof, parallel. I also have a portable 130w unit I can plug up. All of them are in parallel. I made sure the voltages were similar on the spec sheets. I can't remember which voltage/info I had to ensure it would all work but you can look it up.
However, I have only been able to pull in a max of 215w. I believe I am limited by my 15a solar controller. I need to upgrade one day.
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| However, I have only been able to pull in a max of 215w. I believe I am limited by my 15a solar controller. I need to upgrade one day. |
Yeah 215w/14v=15 amps
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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Yeah that's what I figured. I was seeing 175w from my rooftop solar and that put me at roughly 12.5 amps output, so the math checks out. I can't wait to pull in 20+ amps!
Just to be clear on your 5.72 amps, how does the voltage difference convert to 12v?
For example on the Victron app, if it's not the top most amperage value, rather than the "battery charging voltage".
I imagine the 24v at 5.72 amps will give you 10 amps at the 12v battery?
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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Series connection in 24v has several advantages (some disadvantages for our camping usage too)
Its a pertinent subject that I’m coming to understand .... and can explain (I think) but I would be remiss in my Samba duties to let it become buried in a valuable (and specific subject as “Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling”.
Is there a better thread (a link)? 12v vs 24v is good discussion!
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2325
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Series connection in 24v has several advantages (some disadvantages for our camping usage too)
Its a pertinent subject that I’m coming to understand .... and can explain (I think) but I would be remiss in my Samba duties to let it become buried in a valuable (and specific subject as “Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling”.
Is there a better thread (a link)? 12v vs 24v is good discussion! |
It's really a matter of MPPT vs PWM controllers. 24V into a PWM is a waste, you hardly get any more current out - but in parallel (12V) you do. 24V into an MPPT though should give you roughly twice the current available to feed into the battery - at least to start with, until the battery gets fairly well charged.
Here's a very good explanation by tencentlife:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9112653#9112653
| tencentlife wrote: |
First, I would strongly advise against using any current-handling device that does not have a UL or CE rating, there are a lot of cheap and attractive-looking devices on the market that have undergone no independent testing and therefore should not be trusted to be safe. Some of the Vanagon fires we've seen reported here may even have been caused by cheap, unrated solar equipment, the evidence in one case I recall was fairly strong. The Chinese consumer market manufacturers do pretty well with electronics, things that handle data or do control at small currents, they don't do so well with electrics, things that handle real current and do work.
An MPPT charge controller is markedly less efficient in any mode than a straight PWM controller, because the MPPT first puts the PV array input current thru a buck convertor (not a transformer, technically, a transformer is an ac device) to drop the array voltage to battery voltage, with a roughly commensurate increase in output current, and that then goes to a PWM section to regulate battery charge voltage (all MPPT's are PWM controllers on the output side). This obviously has to waste some energy and as Howesight said, you can witness that by the heat it produces. Anywhere heat is made that isn't the intended product, that's inefficiency.
However, the conditions where MPPT has its greatest effect is whenever the array can be operated at a higher voltage than the battery, which is any combination of low battery voltage and/or lower array temperature. Under these conditions MPPT can and does produce the claimed 25-30% increase in current into the battery, and it does it when it's most needed, when the battery is deeply discharged and especially in winter when the charge day is shorter but array temps stay lower. When the inefficiency of the MPPT controller is more than offset by the boost in output current it produces, the MPPT device is superior. It's when the MPPT current boost is equivalent to or less than the MPPT's inefficiency losses that the plain PWM unit is superior, but those conditions are by definition battery near full charge and warm PV cells, denoting less need for charge and warmer weather hence usually longer charge day, when the battery isn't needing as much charge or can wait a little longer to get there. Plus the MPPT inefficiency isn't a fixed percentage, it is less when the voltage down-conversion is less. So in real life conditions of use, vs. an idealised view of battery charging, there's really no substantial downside to MPPT except the extra cost upfront. For stationary working arrays of about 200w or more, an appropriately sized MPPT is always going to net more energy harvested year-round and easily pay for itself, there's no question. For intermittent use small mobile arrays of under about 200w, like on a camper, it may or may not be cost effective, but the more days they're used overall, the deeper the battery is typically discharged, and the more they're used in cold weather, the more the MPPT pays for itself.
Put most simply, the MPPT unit itself is less efficient, but under the right array and battery conditions, it makes the array more efficient, harvesting energy that would be "wasted" with a plain PWM unit, to where the MPPT inefficiency is not on the whole detrimental.
Ultimately the PWM vs. MPPT cost calculation is simple to make for a small array, especially on a camper where array real estate is severely limited: If the price increase for MPPT vs. plain PWM is less than the cost to add 30% more PV wattage and the hardware to support and wire it, the MPPT will come out the winner. |
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1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Looks like fxr and I were typing at about the same time.
I wrote a bunch of 12/24v stuff too then edited .... when I saw how far off-topic I'd gone.
I don't know WHAT thread it could apply to, as the many Solar threads are long and complicated.
If anyone knows a good thread for the 12/24v discussion I'd like to continue it.
Solar subject has a LOT of action all mixed up and you have to read til your eyes bleed.
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
There is a version of rigid 100 watt panel that is a near perfect fit inside the front luggage rack. Mine stays there with no mounting at all, doesn't move around. I think I could even stack 2 of them in there
.......
I used a file on the front corners of the frame to let it fit down lower inside the rack.
Mark |
I have two 50w panels plugging up the cargo-capacity of my crossbars, and want to move solar fwd to the Westy cargo area.
I'm studying panels and sizes and getting ready to buy something.
This is really great news!
Heres some measurements.
I can see how two panels 1.4" thick can fit in the 3 inch recess. And it leaves space on the side for my leveling boards! Panels being "hollow" underneath allows space below for an extension cord.
I can imagine it but Mark can you post a pic of the "filing" that you did to fit it?
Probably only towards the outboard front corners cuz the cargo area is wider in the center.
A pic the panel nestles into the cargo area too?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9935
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Here are photos of the 100 watt compact panel I mentioned above.
1 easily fits inside the luggage rack, no modifications.
Slightly filing 2 front corners lets it drop lower, so another panel can fit stacked on top of it.
Here is 2 panels stacked.
Here is a shot of the corner that was filed slightly on the bottom panel.
The last photo shows the outer edges of the top panel are slightly above the fiberglass. I need to try a little more filing to see if that can be dropped to level.
Mark
| Sodo wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
There is a version of rigid 100 watt panel that is a near perfect fit inside the front luggage rack. Mine stays there with no mounting at all, doesn't move around. I think I could even stack 2 of them in there
.......
I used a file on the front corners of the frame to let it fit down lower inside the rack.
Mark |
Mark can you post a pic of the "filing" that you did to fit it?
And a pic of how the panel nestles into the cargo area? |
Last edited by crazyvwvanman on Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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OK pretty sure I have to order those panels....
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9935
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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I'm no expert but I think when you put two panels in series to make a "24 volt" array it is important that both get the same amount sun. Otherwise the panel with the weaker sun will limit the current through both panels.
Mark |
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Corwyn 
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 2238
Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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Where are you? I have a 150-watt Renogy rigid panel attached to my pop-top, using Sticky Feet solar panel mounts with 3M VHB tape on the bottom
https://rvsolarstore.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=112
. Its been there for four years in all kinds of weather and all speeds. I routed the wires into the rivers side engine grill, through the firewall, behind the cabinets to the solar charge controller behind the seat. Come take a look.
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'90 White Westy ("The Longship")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja
"If anything's" gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there"
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I'm no expert but I think when you put two panels in series to make a "24 volt" array it is important that both get the same amount sun. Otherwise the panel with the weaker sun will limit the current through both panels.
Mark |
I think that’s correct. But its twice the voltage. So if the shaded 100w panel is putting out 20watts, the 2nd 100w panel doubles the voltage resulting in 40watts.
I think.
This is a conundrum because I usually like to park in the shade.
Is there an “extension cord plug arrangement” that can let you choose 12v parallel or 24v Series? 24v Series is best for “less than bright sun”, such as earlier and later in the day, and if theres high clouds.
Anyway this is somewhat related to the subject of “solar panel mounting”.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Solar Panel Mounting Without Drilling? |
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Corwin I’m in Seattle.
My wire goes into the driver side engine air vent as yours does.
I have Yakima crossbars and don’t want the bars to shade the panel. Also want to leave to roof “open” to load other stuff on the bars.
Thats why I’m trying to put panels in the Westy cargo area.
My brother who is somewhat of an expert says the Renogy panels have a fairly high open-circuit voltage which suggests it may work well in parallel (12v). And thus perform OK if one panel is shaded.
But he’s an optimizer. He’d prefer to run series (24v) and camp in full sun. Its all about the watts. Go big or go home. 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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