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tommu Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011 Posts: 615 Location: L.A.
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Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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I'd like to try some
I also have the Thorsten Pieper. Believe Robbie has the Porsche ones. _________________ |
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oshima Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2011 Posts: 112 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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Hey y'all, I have the square port heads (029-101-371B) on my late 78. Are the valve adjusting screws 10mm or 8mm? Only reason I'm asking is because I need to order them today and I don't have access to measure them up. _________________ 1978 2.0L Fuel Injected |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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oshima wrote: |
Hey y'all, I have the square port heads (029-101-371B) on my late 78. Are the valve adjusting screws 10mm or 8mm? Only reason I'm asking is because I need to order them today and I don't have access to measure them up. |
stock late heads are 10 mm _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12687 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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Achtung
'78+ North American buses usually have hydraulic lifters, which are not compatible with swivel-feet adjusting screws. The hydraulic lifters require constant contact from the screw to the valve, but the swivel-feet adjusters require clearance to get splashing oiling from the rocker arms.
If you have hydraulics, cancel the order. If you have solids, swivel on.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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asiab3 wrote: |
Achtung
'78+ North American buses usually have hydraulic lifters, which are not compatible with swivel-feet adjusting screws. The hydraulic lifters (happen to provide) constant contact (between) the screw (and) the valve, but the swivel-feet adjusters require clearance to get splash oiling from the rocker arms.
If you have hydraulics, cancel the order. If you have solids, swivel on.
Robbie |
My Heiko-proferred swivelfoot adjusters now have 64,159 miles on them and they have smoothed out nicely. For the past 7,000 miles since June 7th, they have been actuating the valves on my new Len Hoffman heads with nary a complaint. I like this modification on all long-suffering air-cooled Volkswagen engines that must spend their time on the interstates. Today was 101* on Interstate 5 south of Sacramento, and we settled in qt 406* @ 65 mph and 16.9 mpg with a mild tailwind. Good nuff.
Colin
_________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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I posted this issue over in the performance and engine forum first but the answers I am hearing are mostly from T1 folks. Anyone here who is using the swivel feet on new heads try either shims or bending the arm a few thousands to get the correct alignment? This is a new one to me, I've never had an arm this far off (left one in first photo). I think that the #1 exhaust is going to be too much rotation and valve guide side pressure. I haven't checked other exhaust arms yet to see if I have one that might work better. If so I'll do that tomorrow.
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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I have found this thread really, really helpful.
I am fitting swivel feet to our 2.0l Kombi but as I had 1700 rocker assemblies I have done the work on those to fit the t-p 8mm swivel feet and solid spacers and at a later date I will fit 10mm adjusters to the stock rocker arms and swap them in. My understanding is that the work required is the same either way and so I took some pictures that might make it easier to visualise for anyone planning this highly rated upgrade.
I’ll copy the posts here from our main Kombi thread. I am waiting now for some wave/spring washers to take up the slack as my solid spacers are shorter than some! I currently have 0.06” shims under the rocker stands but I will hopefully update when I manage to check the geometry at half lift.
mcdonaldneal wrote: |
Well, I kept the day clear today and spent it altering rocker arms to accept the swivel foot adjusters. The Kombi has 10mm adjusters but I am fitting the rocker assembly from a 1700. Eventually I will do the same work on the original rockers and refit them. One step at a time!
I’ll talk you through what I did with one pair of rockers.
First, I discarded the central springs and old thrust washers and took out the adjuster screws. I have solid spacers and new adjusters.
Then, cleaned all the parts with kerosene and IPA, and a scotch brite pad. The shaft was rotated smooth in oiled emery paper.
The ideal is to grind off 1.5mm from the bottom of the rocker. What I did was used an old adjuster screw to find a ‘zero’ point and then back out the screw 1.5 turns (it is a 1mm thread pitch). Then, blacken the end of the adjuster with a sharpie and grind with a bench grinder, alternating the two rockers and cooling in a tub of cold water in between. 10 seconds grinding makes them too hot to hold and start to steam! When the grinder reaches the screw you see it as fresh metal.
Once the screw comes out I protected the oil hole internally with a pipe cleaner (there is a cork in the central hole for the same reason). Then, clamped into a vice, protected with a strip of leather…
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_________________ 1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper
Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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Eventually got all eight arms done. The swivel foot is given extra clearance by the countersink, although it’s hard to see in the pics! Reading the various Samba threads, it is probably best to use a rocker stand shim, so actually the adjuster will be really well clear of the rocker arm. Annoyingly, my solid spacers are stock size and so there is about 3mm of lateral play when the shaft is installed (you can see it on the left, between the stand and the rocker arm). So, I think I need the spring washers to take up the slack. I’ve ordered some and they will fill the gap perfectly but there’ll be a delay before everything is fully fitted.
The adjusters look as though they line up very well.
_________________ 1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper
Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3547 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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When I decided to machine my rocker arms to accept swivel adjusters, I cobbed together a fixture to hold them in alignment with and perpendicular to the chuck. The holes are countersunk only. No other material is removed from the rocker arm. In use, the fixture is clamped to the bed of a milling machine or drill press, such that the rocker adjusting screw is concentric with the machining tool.
The fixture is made from stock aluminum extrusions and plate. I don't recall the exact dimensions of the parts, but if anyone is interested, I'll look them up. The mounting studs / nuts and adjusting bolt / nut is standard M8x1.25 hardware; the long bolt and nut is M8x1.0 The assembly screws are 10-32 flathead (I didn't have any metric flathead screws handy). The fixture uses a stock VW rocker arm shaft assembly. This whole fixture was built using a drill press and a band saw.
This fixture is for type 1 rocker arms. The same thing can be fabricated for type 4 rocker arms.
The fixture with a rocker arm in position:
The adjusting bolt and gauge plate: the adjusting bolt is adjusted until the plate is parallel with the long gauge bolt, then the nut is tightened.
Bottom view of fixture:
Side view:
Angle view:
Complete fixture with all parts:
_________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3547 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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Thanks.
I'm still looking for the optimal cutting tool to make this modification. Rocker arms are very hard metal, so it needs a tool which will cut without burning up, wearing out, or needing to be redressed after a rocker arm or two. It needs to be carbide at a minimum. Diamond? I'm not a (real) machinist, so any suggestions appreciated... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Thanks.
I'm still looking for the optimal cutting tool to make this modification. Rocker arms are very hard metal, so it needs a tool which will cut without burning up, wearing out, or needing to be redressed after a rocker arm or two. It needs to be carbide at a minimum. Diamond? I'm not a (real) machinist, so any suggestions appreciated... |
to clean up rocker arms, I completely dissassemble them, glass bead them, and run water and compressed air thru them to get all the beads out. When done, they have a really nice texture on them - meaning that the steel is soft enough to flow with the beads. That would led me to believe a low speed machine tool bit or carbide bit in a real drill press with some oil would do a good job. A carbide burr the right size would work well too. That said, I sent mine out to bugguy1967 here who does that type work. I did not like how they held clearance when installed so I went back to polished screws, but mine were type 4. The way they held clearances had nothing to do with them machining. It was great. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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I think I’ve finally got my head around the concept of shim blocks under the rocker stand.
Because the base of the swivel foot stays flat against the valve tip, the ‘joint’ has moved towards the rocker arm a little (the internal depth of the foot).
To keep the same geometry there has to be a shim to raise the rocker stand by a similar amount. Like if you add a lash cap, as several people have pointed out. (Also, longer pushrods, to be accurate!)
The grinding etc of the rocker arm has very little to do with this. It just makes extra room for the swivelling foot if a) the adjuster is screwed very close to the arm, or b) the angle of the foot at ‘no valve lift’ is too great.
What I have realised is that BOTH of these things happen if you have no shim or only a small shim under the rocker stand. I now see why it is suggested to have about 0.005”-0.006” of shim.
I know this is obvious to some people, but it took me a while! I took pictures today that might help to show the differences.
First, an easy way to find the half lift point of the valves. Turning the pulley I made marks where the valve started and stopped moving (it’s easy to see). The half way point always seems to be TDC or BDC, as it happens.
My solid spacer is a bit short. I am waiting for spring washers, but you can see that three x1mm washers will fit on the shaft with room to spare. This explains why in some of my pics the adjusters are out of line. Ignore it!
With the valves adjusted to 0.006” you can see on the 1/2 cylinder side, which has 0.06” shims there is still room for adjustment on the locknuts.
On the 3/4 cylinder side the left rockers have 0.03” of shim and the right rockers have no shim at all. The adjusters needed to be backed further out, bringing the swivel foot closer to the rockers. I’ll show that in the next post.
_________________ 1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper
Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery!
Last edited by mcdonaldneal on Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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heiko910 Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013 Posts: 221 Location: Gardnerville, NV
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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mcdonaldneal wrote: |
I think I’ve finally got my head around the concept of shim blocks under the rocker stand.
Because the base of the swivel foot stays flat against the valve tip, the ‘joint’ has moved towards the rocker arm a little (the internal depth of the foot).
To keep the same geometry there has to be a shim to raise the rocker stand by a similar amount. Like if you add a lash cap, as several people have pointed out. (Also, longer pushrods, to be accurate!)
The grinding etc of the rocker arm has very little to do with this. It just makes extra room for the swivelling foot if a) the adjuster is screwed very close to the arm, or b) the angle of the foot at ‘no valve lift’ is too great.
What I have realised is that BOTH of these things happen if you have no shim or only a small shim under the rocker stand. I now see why it is suggested to have about 0.005”-0.006” of shim.
I know this is obvious to some people, but it took me a while! I took pictures today that might help to show the differences.
First, an easy way to find the half lift point of the valves. Turning the pulley I made marks where the valve started and stopped moving (it’s easy to see). The half way point always seems to be TDC or BDC, as it happens.
My solid spacer is a bit short. I am waiting for spring washers, but you can see that three x1mm washers will fit on the shaft with room to spare. This explains why in some of my pics the adjusters are out of line. Ignore it!
With the valves adjusted to 0.006” you can see on the 1/2 cylinder side, which has 0.06” shims there is still room for adjustment on the locknuts.
On the 3/4 cylinder side the left rockers have 0.03” of shim and the right rockers have no shim at all. The adjusters needed to be backed further out, bringing the swivel foot closer to the rockers. I’ll show that in the next post.
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That is some serious swivel footery.
As you guys probably have noticed. The swivel feet that I used to sell here on the Samba are no longer available.
I actually used to run them but they wore out relatively quickly and I went back to stock adjusters.
My supplier from Germany gave me issues when USPS lost the package and he wasn't able to claim the lost value from them.
I don't know if anyone of you has found another supplier here in the US with high quality parts.
Give me some feedback, are you guys still running your swivel foot adjusters? |
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mcdonaldneal Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013 Posts: 2639 Location: Gullane, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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Hi Heiko ,
That’s a shame you had issues with your supply of adjusters.
I have been running the 10mm adjusters (sourced direct from Germany) for just under a year, about 3000 miles. I’m pleased with them and the bus is running smoothly but I haven’t inspected them yet. I basically plan to have a look at the end of the season and review the clearances. I had them adjusted to 0.005”-0.006”.
I’m interested to know how you determined that yours were wearing? I have 1700 rocker shafts loaded up with the T-P 8mm swivel feet that I am planning to put on the Kombi I’m bringing back from Australia but I’d like to hear your experience. _________________ 1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper
Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 rock |
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heiko910 wrote: |
I went back to stock adjusters.
I don't know if anyone of you has found another supplier here in the US with high quality parts.
Give me some feedback, are you guys still running your swivel foot adjusters? |
Hello heiko910,
The swivelfoot adjusters I bought from you now have 115,000 miles on them. My 1977 Westy "NaranjaWesty", has 155,000 miles.
The slightly troublesome adjusters I spoke about further up the thread a couple of years ago at 64,000 miles have now reached their end. I hope to find a couple of replacements! The others are fine, the valves are fine, the engine is fine.
08/2022 154,430 miles
_________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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