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1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop?
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StinkyCat
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Greetings and Salutations to all.

I’m starting a second thread on another build I’m attempting with my brother-in-law (BIL). Some quick background; I’m no gearhead by any stretch of the imagination. My BIL on the other hand, he’s been a ‘bug’ guy since we were both old enough to drive (he and I are the same age) and his profession is Body Man so he’s got my back. That said, I’ve been leaning hard on him since I spotted a 1971 Karmann Ghia for sale (more on this at the other build page: https://tinyurl.com/y64g8o8n).

Along the process of the re-build, I keep my eye on KraigsNotes, When I saw this deal pop up, I passed it by BIL for a 1971 convertible bug that appears to be in great shape; No dents, not hits, straight (the eyes of a body shop repair man explaining to me the key points to look at) and I make arrangements to pick this baby up.

Retrieve from the heartland of Texas, I proceed to drop her off at BIL shop to where we can start to properly work on it.

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Initially she wouldn't turn over, but after a quick swap out of a cap and cables, didn’t ever adjust the points, she fired right up catching my BIL by surprise:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j9cwrSKwNrt4tv9m89ATuVJ02g_2aZnw

This past weekend, while deleverity a new 2-stroke 60 gallon compressor and sandblasting unit, we plan on using this setup to remove the paint and rust to allow us to, as easily as we can, remove the bolts to take the body off from the frame for both the ‘71 convertible bug and eventually the ‘68 Ghia.

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Starting with removing the seats, we worked on removing the carpet remnants to get to the floor pans. I knew this was going to be bad….

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TADA!
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This one has me perplexed as I’m not aware of what to call this back ‘firewall’ piece as it appears to be one solid piece or unit that is the backseat. This is rusted/rotted out along the side, so this will need to be replaced. Does this need to be manufactured?

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The horror and hilarity continues
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Here is an example of how many “F”s one does not give as you can see they placed a wooden piece over where the battery tray is located and rotted out:

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And the final surprise as I wrapped up before hitting the road again. When we pulled out the back seat, I saw this little gem stashed underneath. I apologize ahead of time as I didn’t take a photo of the full blade out, rusted as some of the floor pans.

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beanlover
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Covertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

FLIP!! Smile

I am also working on a '71 SB Convertible...one of my two favorite years for SBs for sure ('71 and '72).

For the firewall/luggage area:

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=113813111BH
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D813%2D111%2DBHK

You can just cut the rusted part out and replace with either of those above (those aren't the only two places to get it...just posted those as an example).

You will want to check around for other suppliers as quality of sheet metal for Beetles can vary greatly.

Floor pans are the same way...and available from many folks including the ones linked above.

Good luck! It's nice to have a "body man" on your side for these projects!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Covertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

The pictures don't show anything terrible. Are there holes in the floor boards? If not, then a wire wheel and rust converter might work wonders. How are the rockers and pillars? And your luggage tray might be fine behind that seat and under the horse hair. Dig deeper.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Covertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Generator needs to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Covertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Tom K. wrote:
The pictures don't show anything terrible. Are there holes in the floor boards? If not, then a wire wheel and rust converter might work wonders. How are the rockers and pillars? And your luggage tray might be fine behind that seat and under the horse hair. Dig deeper.


Although I'm about as far from a body expert as one can get, I agree with this assessment- looks like the floor pans are OK and just lots of crumbly stuff on top, but we cant really see too much at the moment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:


The horror and hilarity continues
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You guys need to open your eyes. That thing is rotted out, it's only going to get worse as he continues to strip off all the crap hiding it.

The carpet over the heater channel may be the only thing retaining it's shape. Look at the lumpiness in the carpet over the heater channel, I'm willing to bet that it's just as crunchy under that as the floors were.
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Last edited by TDCTDI on Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:22 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Yeah, I missed that one - but new floor boards or a patch can address it. I'm still interested in seeing the structural metal.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

SAVE THE SEAT TRACKS!!!


The aftermarket ones suck!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

beanlover wrote:
FLIP!! Smile

I am also working on a '71 SB Convertible...one of my two favorite years for SBs for sure ('71 and '72).
….
You will want to check around for other suppliers as quality of sheet metal for Beetles can vary greatly.
….
Good luck! It's nice to have a "body man" on your side for these projects!


Beanlover, Excellent!! I may bend your ear from time-to-time if permissible?

Tom K. wrote:
The pictures don't show anything terrible. Are there holes in the floor boards? If not, then a wire wheel and rust converter might work wonders. How are the rockers and pillars? And your luggage tray might be fine behind that seat and under the horse hair. Dig deeper.

Tom K., Your right about the luggage tray as I didn’t include a proper photo of, what I now understand to be the luggage tray/rack, and the base of the tray seems to be intact but the corner/seams are pretty damaged.
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BIL and I were able to get the wheelhouses off, the running board and some other trim. The wheelhouses appear to be gone, I’m just unsure if we should do like Beanlover suggested and cut out only those ‘holes’ and look at patching them with some good metal.
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With the running boards and wheelhousing out of the way, we found some more rot underneath. I’m wondering how easy these ‘corners’ or seams will be to repair or replace…
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This has gotten my interest in the public education offerings around town as I have tried to enroll in a vocational welding course to get some more experience under my belt (I haven't touched a welder/torch since I was 13 or so.)

The floors are toast. Major sections rusted through; It’s a wonder that the driver wasn’t sitting on a rolling chair with caster.
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As TDCTDI pointed out, it’s beyond saving so I’ve started looking at replacement pans. Again, TDCTDI is correct that someone had ‘poured’ or ‘tarred’ some kind of sealant or adhesive to cover the flooring. When we took up the carpets, it’s almost like a crunchy ‘shell’ that quickly gave way when applied a little pressure (My foot went through the floorboard).
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I’m trying to ‘cook up’ ways of saving a few dollars on this venture as right now I’m leaning toward purchasing the floor plans I need and driving out to La.ca.us to pick them up (No shipping, Local pickup only) and making a trip out of it (Have some buddies in sd.ca.us I need to take out for a beer)... Looking up my travel miles now….
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:
Beanlover, Excellent!! I may bend your ear from time-to-time if permissible?


I will definitely do what I can to help...not sure how much that will be lol...but whatever I'm able to tell you I will (pics, etc.). Smile

I'm curious about the vents and knobs under the dash in this pic:
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It looks like the aftermarket A/C vents (or maybe the aftermarket vents were made to look like factory ones?). The engine shot didn't show a compressor but maybe it was removed when it failed at some point. Anyone have insight on that?

In general your shots of the rusted holes for bolts, etc may cause you issues. You could still patch in metal but then you'll also have to make holes...and hopefully they aren't threaded holes (not that those are impossible to remake...just more tedious work to do when rebuilding this VW). I guess I'm very fortunate in mine that it isn't as rusted as a lot of others I've seen (yours included unfortunately for you heh). I guess it's going to come down to your dedication to the "cause" for this car as SBs aren't generally regarded as high-value restorations (most won't bother because there's not enough return for time spent). I personally love SBs and I feel they will eventually go up in value...they just aren't old enough yet.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

beanlover wrote:

I'm curious about the vents and knobs under the dash in this pic:

It looks like the aftermarket A/C vents (or maybe the aftermarket vents were made to look like factory ones?). The engine shot didn't show a compressor but maybe it was removed when it failed at some point. Anyone have insight on that?


Beanlover, BIL did make mention that he believes it to be factory air; Different parts around the car suggests this. But just as you noticed, I asked about the compressor and we couldn’t find one making us believe that the A/C died on a previous owner and someone decided to pass, based on the cost is what I’ve been told.

beanlover wrote:
.... I guess I'm very fortunate in mine that it isn't as rusted as a lot of others I've seen (yours included unfortunately for you heh).


I suspected that his might be the big ‘cost’ factor on this build. BIL and I jumped on this deal because we saw it was straight, no dents or hits and being a convertible, It’s just a great draw for this part of the country (Summer ranges abound 14 hours of daylight).

beanlover wrote:
I guess it's going to come down to your dedication to the "cause" for this car as SBs aren't generally regarded as high-value restorations (most won't bother because there's not enough return for time spent)...


Didn’t quite have the idea of this being a big ticket score, thought the project looked tough enough to handle and I get to drive it around before someone else just ‘has to have it’. Or at least that is the thought process behind some of this… I guess if I end up homeless, I’ll have a ‘71 Convertible to live in..… without floor pans :-/

With that being said, Maybe I should stop now as I have no “roof” over my head…..
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:
Beanlover, BIL did make mention that he believes it to be factory air; Different parts around the car suggests this. But just as you noticed, I asked about the compressor and we couldn’t find one making us believe that the A/C died on a previous owner and someone decided to pass, based on the cost is what I’ve been told.


Yeah the aftermarket a/c I've seen is approx $1700...but maybe you could get just the parts you need for less coin here...although their literature kinda makes fun of convertible owners getting their stuff haha.

StinkyCat wrote:
I suspected that his might be the big ‘cost’ factor on this build. BIL and I jumped on this deal because we saw it was straight, no dents or hits and being a convertible, It’s just a great draw for this part of the country (Summer ranges abound 14 hours of daylight).


I still think you made the right choice...it does look solid and the rusty parts are really THAT scary. My daughter bought a '79 vert that looked pretty good...but up close has several rusty spots (but solid overall). Her floor pans look like yours in the back half...fronts were still solid thankfully. My confidence level in fixing that kind of stuff has grown since I first got my vert...but I still have yet to tackle anything serious (like cutting body sections and "fabricating" replacements). I started with her back half floor pans and it's been a learning experience for sure but pushing through...I'm confident it'll be good when I'm done. I've never done anything like this before...I used to lack the confidence to mess with cars at all...but within the past couple of years I started doing stuff and watching YouTube videos on how to do the "scary" things and now I feel like I can conquer the (automotive restoration) world as long as I am able to tackle it one small bit at a time heh...so I bought my vert in February of this year (introduction post here if you want to scan it) and have just been taking my time with it.

StinkyCat wrote:
Didn’t quite have the idea of this being a big ticket score, thought the project looked tough enough to handle and I get to drive it around before someone else just ‘has to have it’. Or at least that is the thought process behind some of this… I guess if I end up homeless, I’ll have a ‘71 Convertible to live in..… without floor pans :-/

With that being said, Maybe I should stop now as I have no “roof” over my head…..


I could think of worse places to live haha. I wish you luck! Looks like you guys are well underway. I still have a lot of dismantling to do and I'm stalling because I don't really have help. I did see a nice post of a homemade body-dolly in here that I need to make...so that's probably my next step just prior to finishing up what I think I need to do to separate the body from the pan. I think once I cross that threshold I'll be on the downhill side of the rebuild. I am going to attempt to paint it all myself as well...which means I'll also be building a little painting "shed" in my carport. I figured something that can be dismantled would be best...with some thick plastic sheeting for walls and a spot for air to go in and another for it to be vented. Should be interesting. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Good luck, but, that thing is crunchier than a box full of corn flakes.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:

Beanlover, BIL did make mention that he believes it to be factory air;


FYI there is no such thing as "factory air" in a VW Beetle; A/C systems were never ever fitted from the factory. However there were several vendors contracted by VWoA to create A/C kits which were optionally installed at dealers.

That under-dash housing with vents is definitely from one of those kits. You may find other remnants throughout the car as well, maybe hoses, or a receiver/dryer mounted in a wheel well. They usually mounted the condenser just behind the front apron on a Super.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
FYI there is no such thing as "factory air" in a VW Beetle; A/C systems were never ever fitted from the factory....


Sjbartnik, Thank You Very Much for this information. In tandem thinking with beanlover:
beanlover wrote:
...although their literature kinda makes fun of convertible owners getting their stuff haha.

BIL and I said the same thing… “Why on a convertible… Pass”; Not knowing much, but figuring what changes I’ve seen with the motor, prior to lifting up the carpet to finding bad floor-filling-patchy-patch-job, I knew that this one has had some aftermarket/custom(?) pieces and parts.

Apologies ahead of time if wrong place/forum; Question to you and the collective then, Would this be true of all Volkswagen models of years prior? Factory Air that is? On the 1968 Ghia I acquired, BIL said the same thing with an evaporative bottle in the wheel well:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


beanlover wrote:
I started with her back half floor pans and it's been a learning experience for sure but pushing through...I'm confident it'll be good when I'm done. I've never done anything like this before...I used to lack the confidence to mess with cars at all...but within the past couple of years I started doing stuff and watching YouTube videos on how to do the "scary" things and now I feel like I can conquer the (automotive restoration) world as long as I am able to tackle it one small bit at a time heh…

I think I love you… <cough> Uhmm.. Huh, What? You have gold here as I hear a voice resonating in my mind, echoing these very thoughts. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your words. Thank You Very Much for sharing this! You have truly inspired me and I wish I was only available to give you a hand with your project. I have gone over your thread and bookmarked as I’ve been devouring all information I can from all resources about how to go about this restoration. Mind you, I do have BIL as a solid body man. He’s never gone past the base Beetle and Super Beetle so the difference are a new world to him, which he’s really getting into (this convertible and the Ghia). This has been a great experience for me personally as I’ve grown extremely close in my personal relationship with him and my sister as her family. And I, like you, stepped into another world I’ve seen from peripherally (Very much in tune with TDTCI’s signature) in the past but never got ‘my hands dirty’ if you will.

beanlover wrote:
I did see a nice post of a homemade body-dolly in here that I need to make...so that's probably my next step just prior to finishing up what I think I need to do to separate the body from the pan.


I’m thinking the same thing. We’ve discussed lifts and a rotisserie but that’s just getting ahead of myself. We still have parts to take off and assess the
Q-Dog wrote:
box full of corn flakes.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:


Apologies ahead of time if wrong place/forum; Question to you and the collective then, Would this be true of all Volkswagen models of years prior? Factory Air that is? On the 1968 Ghia I acquired, BIL said the same thing with an evaporative bottle in the wheel well:




Yes, it's true of all other air-cooled VWs of the German era. None ever came with factory A/C but dealer-install kits were available here in the U.S.

I cannot speak for post-1980 Mexican or Brazilian produced Beetles though.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

I agree with sjbartnik about your A/C; your car has a VW dealer-offered A/C system. Here's a photo of the controls from a 1971 VW A/C accessory brochure:
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A PO installed the cigarette lighter and the clock:
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Here's the link to the brochure- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/literature71ac.php

Another important body component to carefully check are the convertible body support rails. Those are the box section channels welded to the underside of the body that are just inboard, and below where the running boards are mounted. Those must be sturdy, because they provide strength to the body against bending since the rigidity of the metal roof (sedans) is not there. It's likely the rails will be partly rotten on your car based on the other rot areas. You can lift the body off the chassis with the rails in place, but you must first weld in various supports (door openings) before lifting the body so that it does not get bent. You can see the rail in this shot; the jack port is welded to it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In my opinion that "slanted" engine fan shroud is among one of the most poorly designed aftermarket items from the 1970's. Find a good used German "doghouse" fan shroud and matching fan to refurbish for best engine cooling.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

StinkyCat wrote:
I think I love you… <cough> Uhmm.. Huh, What? You have gold here as I hear a voice resonating in my mind, echoing these very thoughts. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your words. Thank You Very Much for sharing this! You have truly inspired me and I wish I was only available to give you a hand with your project. I have gone over your thread and bookmarked as I’ve been devouring all information I can from all resources about how to go about this restoration. Mind you, I do have BIL as a solid body man. He’s never gone past the base Beetle and Super Beetle so the difference are a new world to him, which he’s really getting into (this convertible and the Ghia). This has been a great experience for me personally as I’ve grown extremely close in my personal relationship with him and my sister as her family. And I, like you, stepped into another world I’ve seen from peripherally (Very much in tune with TDTCI’s signature) in the past but never got ‘my hands dirty’ if you will.


LOL...whoa there Cowboy...I'm taken! :p
Seriously though I'm glad that helped...if you're like me you'll go through times when you just don't know what to do next and kinda stop...then you'll figure something out and get extra motivated. The key is to take the whole project in small chunks...that way you'll feel accomplished doing those small chunks and (hopefully) you won't become overwhelmed.

StinkyCat wrote:
We’ve discussed lifts and a rotisserie but that’s just getting ahead of myself.


When you get there...here's that link I was talking about. A rotisserie would be fantastic for some things you may need to do...but this good for basic (which is my approach currently).
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Murmsk
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

If you don’t need or want a/c why not put the parts and sell them to buy other needed parts.

S
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1970 Convertible
1972 super
1946 Willys Jeep
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StinkyCat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1971 Convertible Bug - Flip or Flop? Reply with quote

Today I started off early and BIL and I were able to work a few more pieces off the car and i was able to inspect some of the damaged areas more closely so as to get an idea of how much metal I’ll be looking at replacing.

Rome wrote:
I agree with sjbartnik about your A/C; your car has a VW dealer-offered A/C system. Here's a photo of the controls from a 1971 VW A/C accessory brochure:
A PO installed the cigarette lighter and the clock:



Exactly as Sjbartnik and You have now stated; I mentioned sjbartnik’s statement about all VW’s manufactured out of Germany would not have this option, but asking the open-ended question that we knew they manufactured vehicles specifically for the US market so that this would be, Like you suggested, a dealer option. What I could see of the equipment along with what BIL pointed out with the hoses running along the body line, the were secured or fasted in with ¼” metal screws holding the hose body-clamps, indicating that this was not German made.
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Murmsk wrote:
If you don’t need or want a/c why not put the parts and sell them to buy other needed parts.S

Thought we might do that as well. Not sure how useful this will for aftermarket, but Eh <shrug> You never know I suppose:
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Along with the main vent unit and a fan with housing, there appeared to be a number of specialty parts just for the A/C such as this body-conforming shaped vent-tube and the air cleaner, which appears to be larger than average I believe:
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Rome wrote:
Another important body component to carefully check are the convertible body support rails. Those are the box section channels welded to the underside of the body that are just inboard, and below where the running boards are mounted. Those must be sturdy, because they provide strength to the body against bending since the rigidity of the metal roof (sedans) is not there. It's likely the rails will be partly rotten on your car based on the other rot areas. You can lift the body off the chassis with the rails in place, but you must first weld in various supports (door openings) before lifting the body so that it does not get bent. You can see the rail in this shot; the jack port is welded to it.


BIL was mentioning the number of differences he believes to be with the convertible due to the very reason you just mentioned. Reinforced structure from the bottom which had me worried specifically about what you mentioned with the support rails. Because these are critical, I suspect that these simply can’t be replaced but we will need to figure out how to shore theses up somehow:
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Rome wrote:
In my opinion that "slanted" engine fan shroud is among one of the most poorly designed aftermarket items from the 1970's. Find a good used German "doghouse" fan shroud and matching fan to refurbish for best engine cooling.

BIL and I talked about this as I mentioned that I noticed a few aftermarket upgrades, but was unsure of how much they would add or benefit the overall performance of the vehicle. I’ll pass this along to BIL and decide what we should proceed with. We have an extra ‘dog house’ I believe that was included with assorted parts in the front trunk, another generator, and this also was to include the ‘mystery briefcase’. Not locked, so the treasures and secrets were easily revlied:
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We discussed what we should we should do with the dash as well as the top dash panel. Someone decided to remove the old speaker and place in a Tachometer. Not the best looking job and I know we can put in an insert to cover up the hole; Just unsure if I wanna keep the cracked padding up top:
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The floors are gone, both sides. I went ahead and tried to push on the metal as much as possible. We’ll eventually cut it away but as I started to assess the depth of the rust, we lost power in the shop.
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During this assessment, BIL pointed out a good “tell” that the bug did an excellent job of holding water for an extended period of time as eventend by the water line:
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BIL also was perplexed as to why the front end looks like a Super Beetle, yet the windshield is “flat”, Not curved as expected with a Super Beetle:
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Again, BIL personal experience hasn’t seen much out of the realm of Beetle and Super Beetle so he was curious as if the hood was different in size. After a quick measurement, sure enough the hood of the convertible is about 3 to 4 inches longer/wider.
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About this time, as I mentioned, the shop had lost power so we weren’t going to get much done past this point. A few minutes prior to this, I started to receive emails and text alerts that a number of citizens of the city were being slaughtered and that a command post was convening near the site, that I might be required to attend. I came straight back home.

This became a terrible weekend.
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