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Type 4 003 transmission rebuild
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Danno5
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Joined: March 19, 2016
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Location: Leavenworth, KS
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Type 4 003 transmission rebuild Reply with quote

This has been done in the type 3 forum and in the type 2 forum by some really smart people, so I am only going to add in my two cents where they didn't have any comments. I also have a few questions as I go through.

First, why I am doing this: My trans contaminated my final drive, which is bad and I have no documentation that it has been touched in its 40-odd years of existence (which includes about a decade of storage time. I am starting here with a master rebuild kit to cover my bases.

First thought: What to do with the torque converter once you have it out. I made a siphon as close to Type 3 Bentley manual spec as I could. The chemistry people at the university made a surprise donation, so I used glass tubing instead of metal. Worked pretty good, although I think my tubing was still too big because it didn't siphon off a ton of fluid:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Second thought: I took the pan off and saw that my filter was ripped:
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Rockauto.com carries two choices for this under 20$.

Third thought: I found it was easiest when disassembling the valve body to remove springs and then tip the valve body to remove valves. Here is the back plate removed with nothing taken out yet. There is a ton of stuff here, so be slow, label and box everything.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now, a question for everybody. I am about halfway through the disassembly and have reached a sticking point. The secondary throttle pressure valve and its spring ( figure 5-4 in type 3 bentley #25 and #28 ) do not want to come out. You can see the spring loaded under some sort of clamp with an allen bolt here. The valve runs right through the spring:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

How do I get that valve and spring out? Do I need to count threads and loosen the clamp?

Thanks in advance for help! I wouldn't have this car if it weren't for everybody on here and shoptalk too.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission reduild Reply with quote

When I get back home Sunday I will dig through my notes. At the moment no books are with me.
Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission reduild Reply with quote

Thanks Ray!

I actually figure out how to get that secondary pressure valve out, but not its spring. Turns out the valve was just sticking in the bore a little bit. I went to Ace Hardware, got a little 1/4 inch brass rod and tapped the end of the valve where it pokes out just beyond the spring clamp. That got the valve moving, although the spring is still in there so anything you can dig up on the secondary pressure valve spring is welcomed.

One side note, I did find that a note about one of the other valves that has an adjusting screw also applies to the secondary pressure valve. It is one of those "Do not touch the adjusting screw" style of warnings, so the thing must just flop out if you pull it in the right direction? A little paranoid of bending the sucker though, so I am definitely waiting for other folk's input on that one!

After I got that valve out I left the spring in and moved on for the moment. I moved to the other side and took off the front plate. Those three valves under the front plate came out with no problems. The springs just fell out and a gentle shake got each of the valves out. Now I am on the converter pressure valve and that one is a bear. The spring cup that holds the valve spring in is an odd one. I think it needs to twist clockwise or counter to come out. Once I have the cup off the spring and valve should slide out. The spring cup doesn't want to twist easily though and it has an odd aperture. I will post some pics after I stare at it this afternoon. Fun! Very Happy
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission reduild Reply with quote

Just in case it wasn't clear, I outlined in white the secondary throttle pressure valve body.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think I got past my converter valve stopping point! Here is the front of the valve body with the converter pressure valve cup and spring removed. The valve is still sitting in its bore, but a gentle shake and that slid out far enough to remove.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

My biggest worry taking this off was the bending the spring. I don't think I bent the spring taking the cup off. In fact, I could see any way to remove the spring cup without slightly depressing it. The teeth on the cup are at varying heights, so to disengage the teeth that were keeping it from rotating you have to press the cup against the spring lightly. Anyway, I pushed the cup in with my index finger and turned it counterclockwise. I am sure there was a special tool that looked like a weird torx socket that would do it quicker and more surely, but gentle and steady finger pressure seemed to work OK.

The manual valve, just to the right came out easy, so the only thing not off the valve body is that one secondary throttle pressure spring! Laughing
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission reduild Reply with quote

HI type 4 people (and hopefully the type 3 and baywindow guys who have rebuild their 003s!):

A brief hiatus for the transmission filter to come from rockauto before I finish the valvebody cleaning. I got back to it today and got about 90% of the way through before hitting something unexpected. The Bentley talks about how valves should sink into their bores of their own weight without sticking. Every valve did that except for one, the secondary throttle pressure valve The valve sinks down until about 2mm remains and then I hear a "thunk" and it stops. I can see inside that about 2 mm of the tapered portion I circled below that doesn't sink into the last bore.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've got a hypothesis about this I wanted to try with you guys before I actually test it. This is the only valve in the valve body that is "backwards." The spring is on the interior of the valve body rather than on the outside like all the others. What I think is that the tapered portion of this valve is a spring seat that requires a little nudge to get it to engage the spring. I think you can use the plug (part #30 in the fit) to give the valve that nudge. I have an observation from disassembly that might support this. I noted that I needed to use a brass rod on the very end of the valve to even get it started moving out of its bore. There must be a slight catch where the valve engages the spring.

What does the 003 crowd think about this idea? Give it the extra nudge?
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission rebuild Reply with quote

Welllll! I tried my own solution to that one valve I could not figure out how to release. Leave it in!

Finished up with the valve body reassembly. Check!

long story short, I just finished up doing everything else too. And I mean everything. Disassembled everything from the carrier down to the ATF pump, cleaned it out, put in all the fun stuff from the rebuild master kit, and then reassembled it. On the third try I even got the right axial clearance! Kept getting stuck up on one of the clutch discs. Smile Each step looked just like the type 3 and type 2 people with their 003's so no surprises other than the aforementioned difficulty lining up those clutch discs so each hub can fit in them. Oh well, just take it apart again, relube with ATF and try again! Eventually you will get that satisfying "thunk" as the hub cogs slip past the last disc.

Last thing is to look at adjusting the brake bands and the vacuum thingy.
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission rebuild Reply with quote

Yeah, lining up the inner and outer splines on the clutch packs can be a test of sanity. Since I have created my write up, I have rebuilt 4 other 003 autos, and have discovered that the manuals don't always tell the whole story. I have scoured the internet for any manual I could find. I have the Type 3, and Type 2 Bentley, 2 - (411, 412) manuals (non Bentley) and a factory training manual. I even have the "factory" wooden valve body origination tray. In a couple of the manuals, they say what the spring length and tension should be for the piston springs. However, what I discovered, is that out of the five autos I have rebuilt, I came across three different valve body configurations, yet all of my manuals show the exact same valve bodies. That's when you have to wing it and make sure that the pistons slide in the bores without binding or too much slop.

As far as testing you vacuum "thingy" (modulator), Do you have a hand vacuum pump? If not get one from harbor freight, and pump it up to about 10 on the dial. It should hold this vacuum, if it leaks down, you will never get the shift speeds right
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission rebuild Reply with quote

Multi69s wrote:
Yeah, lining up the inner and outer splines on the clutch packs can be a test of sanity. Since I have created my write up, I have rebuilt 4 other 003 autos, and have discovered that the manuals don't always tell the whole story. I have scoured the internet for any manual I could find. I have the Type 3, and Type 2 Bentley, 2 - (411, 412) manuals (non Bentley) and a factory training manual. I even have the "factory" wooden valve body origination tray. In a couple of the manuals, they say what the spring length and tension should be for the piston springs. However, what I discovered, is that out of the five autos I have rebuilt, I came across three different valve body configurations, yet all of my manuals show the exact same valve bodies. That's when you have to wing it and make sure that the pistons slide in the bores without binding or too much slop.

As far as testing you vacuum "thingy" (modulator), Do you have a hand vacuum pump? If not get one from harbor freight, and pump it up to about 10 on the dial. It should hold this vacuum, if it leaks down, you will never get the shift speeds right


Sorry I have not gotten back to this. I was out of country for a week and its been crazy.

And....yes....there are st least three different valve bodies listed. Really they are largely the same valve body....but have differences in how they are set up.....and thats why you are finding a wide vatiation. Notes on what these went into are in the without guesswork book. I will post that in a few. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 003 transmission rebuild Reply with quote

In the basic type 003 Automatic across types 2, 3 and 4...there are 4 valve bodies.

I'll just list types 3 and 4

Typ3 1600:
starting with # 0 117 822
Final drive 9:33 (3.67:1) letter code EB ...valve marking B

Type 4: 1700:
up to july 1971
Final drive: 11:43 (3.91:1) Letter code EG...valve marking D

From August 1971
Final drive : 11:43 (3.91:1) letter code EH...valve marking D

From January 1973 (sedan only)
Final drive : 11:41 (3.73:1) letter code EK...valve marking D

From August 1973 (wagon only)
Final drive : 11:43 (3.91:1) letter code EH...valve marking M

From August 1973 (sedan only)
Final drive : 11:41 (3.73:1) letter code EK...valve marking M

Type 4 1800:

From November 1973 (all)
Final drive : 11:43 (3.91:1) letter code EM...valve marking M

Ray
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