Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SweetCars
Samba Member


Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 219
Location: Dominican Republic
SweetCars is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

Reading lately on Type 4 engine and all the Pros and Cons.
They improved a lot of things compared to original Type 1 engine, aluminium case, beefer crank, better lubricating, better cooling.

I wonder now with the new aftermarket parts we have. For example Type 1 aluminum case, forged crank, full flowed case, external oil coolers, 8 dowel pins cranks..... would the Type 4 still be superior?

Or the type 4 is only superior Stock vs Stock?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Clatter
Samba Member


Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 4238
Location: Santa Cruz
Clatter is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Oh, no... Not this one again.. Rolling Eyes
_________________
Bus Motor Build
Fastback Build

What's That Noise??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
APPLEGREENVW
Samba Member


Joined: November 30, 2003
Posts: 1523
Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
APPLEGREENVW is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699456
_________________
76 Beetle sedan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SweetCars
Samba Member


Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 219
Location: Dominican Republic
SweetCars is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Well thank you for the great info.

But what i was asking wasnt information on the type 4.
But with all the diferent technique and aftermarket parts available, not about HP but about reliability, the type 1 engine isnt equal reliable and string than the type 4?

External oil filter
Stronger crank
Aluminium case
Full flow

Arent those the corrections of the type 1 engine? Or even with those mods, the type 4 is greater?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SweetCars
Samba Member


Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 219
Location: Dominican Republic
SweetCars is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, no... Not this one again.. Rolling Eyes


Just go on your way. Dont understand the meaning of your comment. Thats maybe the way you got over 4000 post for commenting stupidity. You should be strongly bored.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
H2OSB
Samba Member


Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 609
Location: Modesto, CA
H2OSB is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

SweetCars wrote:
Quote:
Oh, no... Not this one again.. Rolling Eyes


Just go on your way. Dont understand the meaning of your comment. Thats maybe the way you got over 4000 post for commenting stupidity. You should be strongly bored.


No, it's just that this topic has been covered before...and people can get heated.

H2OSB
_________________
Some people should not work on engines or other machinery.
Sorry to say that you are one of them. Actually no offence intended. ~ boolean
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alstrup
Samba Member


Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 3917
Location: Videbaek Denmark
Alstrup is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

He´s already hot Laughing Cool

Short version: Anything sub 2 liter isnt worth converting to type 4 for. Reason is that the cost involved is simply too high.
Harsh enviroment, a lot of high speed driving or high sustained loads say in a bus, YES then it can definitely be an advantage going type 4.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 3554
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

In a T4

Crank still has no flexing issues

Valvetrain is still more stable

Heads still have more surface area

Pushrod alignment is still better

Crank/flywheel connection is stronger (argueable)

And they're not that expensive. They can be, but so can T1. A machinist could build a very strong T4 on a T1 budget.
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
H2OSB
Samba Member


Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 609
Location: Modesto, CA
H2OSB is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Not to mention the life span. A well cared for T4 will triple the life of a stock, also well cared for T1

H2OSB
_________________
Some people should not work on engines or other machinery.
Sorry to say that you are one of them. Actually no offence intended. ~ boolean
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
nextgen
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 4268
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
nextgen is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wow you guys sound like me, hmmmm, about in 1992, when it was just me vs the T-1 forces.

The time has come when the virtues of the T-4 engine are no longer in doubt.

Carry on!! Ha !
_________________
site: www.nextgen-usa.com
email: [email protected]
or
[email protected]
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jpaull
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 1912
Location: Sacramento Ca
jpaull is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

In most ways the type 4 would still be more reliable. If your sole goal is reliability, and money is not the biggest factor, its really a great choice(better).

This is the performance section of thesamba. So this still needs to be said:
Type 1 fun is with all the choices. A guy can hot rod a type 1 so easy and with low out of pocket. (The small block chevy of VW's)
1. 8 different crank sizes for 250 each
2. 5 different H beam rod sizes for under 250 a set
3. 50 different performance Head options from 5 different manufactures all under $1,000. How many Type 4 performance head options under $1k?
4. Straight cut gears, cams, intakes, rockers, valve covers to infinity.
5. If something does break, its super easy to take apart and relatively inexpensive to fix.

Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads Drool barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great.
_________________
Some classic arm drop racing with mild 2234cc
https://youtu.be/CCsaCaqPF7k
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Onceler
Samba Member


Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 967
Location: Indiana
Onceler is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I couldn’t imagine trying to build a type IV for performance considering the relatively small market. Hell, even the far larger type 1 market is packed full of prima donnas.
_________________
1972 Karmann Ghia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 3696
Location: Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Ahh! But... the type 4 engine comes stock with a good bit of performance already built in! We are already 1/2 way there before you guys have even started to hot rod yours! Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 3554
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
In most ways the type 4 would still be more reliable. If your sole goal is reliability, and money is not the biggest factor, its really a great choice(better).

This is the performance section of thesamba. So this still needs to be said:
Type 1 fun is with all the choices. A guy can hot rod a type 1 so easy and with low out of pocket. (The small block chevy of VW's)
1. 8 different crank sizes for 250 each
2. 5 different H beam rod sizes for under 250 a set
3. 50 different performance Head options from 5 different manufactures all under $1,000. How many Type 4 performance head options under $1k?
4. Straight cut gears, cams, intakes, rockers, valve covers to infinity.
5. If something does break, its super easy to take apart and relatively inexpensive to fix.

Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads Drool barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great.


I agree with most of this. I like the look of the T4 now. You gotta acquire the taste, like India Pale Ales.

There are zero options for good heads under $1000, unless you can machine everything yourself.
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wreck
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 346
Location: Brisbane
Wreck is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

[

Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads Drool barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great.[/quote]


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


No ugly oil filler's here Very Happy Very Happy .
My take is horses for courses . if you have a bug/Ghia/Type3 are happy with stock to medium HP then the difference is not that great , reliability comes more down to the engine builder and tuner and how well the engine is serviced in it's life time .

If it's a heavy bus and is used as a daily driver in hotter climates then a type 4 wins because of the 30% bigger surface area of the heads and 94mm cylinders have bigger cooling fins . But again how well the engine is built and cooled plays a huge part in reliability and life span .
AA now make a bare casting of the 2lt Porsche 914 type 4 head just over $300USD .a stock head with 42mm 36mm valves flow around 180CFM at .500" , All depends on machining costs to get the heads fitted out . But I'm guessing in the State's that wouldn't be too much over the $1000 mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jpaull
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 1912
Location: Sacramento Ca
jpaull is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

The 2 pictures above show something that demonstrates a confidence in reliability over a duration of time. The AC compressor. Type 1's can do it, but its abit more realistic with a type 4.
_________________
Some classic arm drop racing with mild 2234cc
https://youtu.be/CCsaCaqPF7k
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
nextgen
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 4268
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
nextgen is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I don't know about ugly. Most guys like the Cali Style using stock T-1 36 hp fanhousings because they look stock. Evening in states that will not pass a car with a non stock engine. They cannot tell by just looking.

A big percentage of my manuals sold are to Europe you fail inspection if not stock.

Many of my customers are Porsche 356 and 912 owners saving the original engine for when and if they sell the car. No body cutting, in and out like stock.

They daily drive and can have more power then stock. Hard to kill a T-4 in a light car.

I see the only real difference is the Gen/ Alt stand if you look hard.
_________________
site: www.nextgen-usa.com
email: [email protected]
or
[email protected]
The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
APPLEGREENVW
Samba Member


Joined: November 30, 2003
Posts: 1523
Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
APPLEGREENVW is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I don't see anything ugly this photo. Cool Drool
_________________
76 Beetle sedan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Glenn Premium Member
Mr. 010


Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 66708
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Glenn is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Looks OK to me....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Cast Iron and Aluminum distributors rebuilt since 2000.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jpaull
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 1912
Location: Sacramento Ca
jpaull is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

APPLEGREENVW wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I don't see anything ugly this photo. Cool Drool


That's the coolest one I've seen! The ugly ass oil filler is not in the picture, and still needs to be added though. For $600 in cooling for a type 4 conversion that's pretty darn clean.
_________________
Some classic arm drop racing with mild 2234cc
https://youtu.be/CCsaCaqPF7k
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB