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SweetCars Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009 Posts: 219 Location: Dominican Republic
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:24 am Post subject: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Hi everyone,
Reading lately on Type 4 engine and all the Pros and Cons.
They improved a lot of things compared to original Type 1 engine, aluminium case, beefer crank, better lubricating, better cooling.
I wonder now with the new aftermarket parts we have. For example Type 1 aluminum case, forged crank, full flowed case, external oil coolers, 8 dowel pins cranks..... would the Type 4 still be superior?
Or the type 4 is only superior Stock vs Stock? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7544 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Oh, no... Not this one again.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2388 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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SweetCars Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009 Posts: 219 Location: Dominican Republic
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Well thank you for the great info.
But what i was asking wasnt information on the type 4.
But with all the diferent technique and aftermarket parts available, not about HP but about reliability, the type 1 engine isnt equal reliable and string than the type 4?
External oil filter
Stronger crank
Aluminium case
Full flow
Arent those the corrections of the type 1 engine? Or even with those mods, the type 4 is greater? |
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SweetCars Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009 Posts: 219 Location: Dominican Republic
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Quote: |
Oh, no... Not this one again.. Rolling Eyes |
Just go on your way. Dont understand the meaning of your comment. Thats maybe the way you got over 4000 post for commenting stupidity. You should be strongly bored. |
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1293 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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SweetCars wrote: |
Quote: |
Oh, no... Not this one again.. Rolling Eyes |
Just go on your way. Dont understand the meaning of your comment. Thats maybe the way you got over 4000 post for commenting stupidity. You should be strongly bored. |
No, it's just that this topic has been covered before...and people can get heated.
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7216 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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He´s already hot
Short version: Anything sub 2 liter isnt worth converting to type 4 for. Reason is that the cost involved is simply too high.
Harsh enviroment, a lot of high speed driving or high sustained loads say in a bus, YES then it can definitely be an advantage going type 4. |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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In a T4
Crank still has no flexing issues
Valvetrain is still more stable
Heads still have more surface area
Pushrod alignment is still better
Crank/flywheel connection is stronger (argueable)
And they're not that expensive. They can be, but so can T1. A machinist could build a very strong T4 on a T1 budget. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1293 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Not to mention the life span. A well cared for T4 will triple the life of a stock, also well cared for T1
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6029 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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In most ways the type 4 would still be more reliable. If your sole goal is reliability, and money is not the biggest factor, its really a great choice(better).
This is the performance section of thesamba. So this still needs to be said:
Type 1 fun is with all the choices. A guy can hot rod a type 1 so easy and with low out of pocket. (The small block chevy of VW's)
1. 8 different crank sizes for 250 each
2. 5 different H beam rod sizes for under 250 a set
3. 50 different performance Head options from 5 different manufactures all under $1,000. How many Type 4 performance head options under $1k?
4. Straight cut gears, cams, intakes, rockers, valve covers to infinity.
5. If something does break, its super easy to take apart and relatively inexpensive to fix.
Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great. _________________ [email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Onceler Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010 Posts: 1647 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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I couldn’t imagine trying to build a type IV for performance considering the relatively small market. Hell, even the far larger type 1 market is packed full of prima donnas. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12730 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Ahh! But... the type 4 engine comes stock with a good bit of performance already built in! We are already 1/2 way there before you guys have even started to hot rod yours! |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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jpaull wrote: |
In most ways the type 4 would still be more reliable. If your sole goal is reliability, and money is not the biggest factor, its really a great choice(better).
This is the performance section of thesamba. So this still needs to be said:
Type 1 fun is with all the choices. A guy can hot rod a type 1 so easy and with low out of pocket. (The small block chevy of VW's)
1. 8 different crank sizes for 250 each
2. 5 different H beam rod sizes for under 250 a set
3. 50 different performance Head options from 5 different manufactures all under $1,000. How many Type 4 performance head options under $1k?
4. Straight cut gears, cams, intakes, rockers, valve covers to infinity.
5. If something does break, its super easy to take apart and relatively inexpensive to fix.
Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great. |
I agree with most of this. I like the look of the T4 now. You gotta acquire the taste, like India Pale Ales.
There are zero options for good heads under $1000, unless you can machine everything yourself. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1218 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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[
Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly. The wierd oil filler, exhaust morphing out the bottom of the heads barf . Now if your into German look covered in carbon fiber trying to be a porsche then great.[/quote]
No ugly oil filler's here .
My take is horses for courses . if you have a bug/Ghia/Type3 are happy with stock to medium HP then the difference is not that great , reliability comes more down to the engine builder and tuner and how well the engine is serviced in it's life time .
If it's a heavy bus and is used as a daily driver in hotter climates then a type 4 wins because of the 30% bigger surface area of the heads and 94mm cylinders have bigger cooling fins . But again how well the engine is built and cooled plays a huge part in reliability and life span .
AA now make a bare casting of the 2lt Porsche 914 type 4 head just over $300USD .a stock head with 42mm 36mm valves flow around 180CFM at .500" , All depends on machining costs to get the heads fitted out . But I'm guessing in the State's that wouldn't be too much over the $1000 mark |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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The 2 pictures above show something that demonstrates a confidence in reliability over a duration of time. The AC compressor. Type 1's can do it, but its abit more realistic with a type 4. _________________ [email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6029 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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I don't know about ugly. Most guys like the Cali Style using stock T-1 36 hp fanhousings because they look stock. Evening in states that will not pass a car with a non stock engine. They cannot tell by just looking.
A big percentage of my manuals sold are to Europe you fail inspection if not stock.
Many of my customers are Porsche 356 and 912 owners saving the original engine for when and if they sell the car. No body cutting, in and out like stock.
They daily drive and can have more power then stock. Hard to kill a T-4 in a light car.
I see the only real difference is the Gen/ Alt stand if you look hard. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2388 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Looks OK to me....
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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APPLEGREENVW wrote: |
I don't see anything ugly this photo. |
That's the coolest one I've seen! The ugly ass oil filler is not in the picture, and still needs to be added though. For $600 in cooling for a type 4 conversion that's pretty darn clean. _________________ [email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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