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Relyt Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2012 Posts: 1008 Location: WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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The rear breastplate tin will need modifications to clear the full flow oil filter setup. Expect cutting, hammering, and using pliers.
And for the record, there’s no such thing as high performance cooling tin, to get more cooling you would have to get more cool air. The best cooling tin is a complete set of original.
What everyone seemed to skip over is:
What are you doing with this car? Daily driver? Weekend fun? Road trips? Car shows?
What do you want to do to the car? Learn how to do a full rebuild? Just tinker on little things here and there? Customize it? Or just drive it?
The answer to those questions will really determine how urgent things are and how much work is worth putting into it. _________________ 69 Beetle - Daily driver
1600 SP (unknown history)
30 PICT 1 w/power circuit (Volkzbitz)
205T (Bill) |
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Relyt wrote: |
What everyone seemed to skip over is:
What are you doing with this car? Daily driver? Weekend fun? Road trips? Car shows?
What do you want to do to the car? Learn how to do a full rebuild? Just tinker on little things here and there? Customize it? Or just drive it?
The answer to those questions will really determine how urgent things are and how much work is worth putting into it. |
Honestly, I bought it for nostalgia and local, weekend driving in the summer months only. This will be stored in the winter. I specifically looked for one in great shape with a newish engine so i was not in this exact situation, because i knew I'd be in over my head.
That said, thank goodness for this site! You guys are awesome so far! |
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Relyt Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2012 Posts: 1008 Location: WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Personally, if it’s just a fun weekend car, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. The lack of proper cooling will shorten the life but you’ll be putting such low miles on it.
So take a breath and work on one thing at a time at your own pace. Or if you don’t really want to be working on the car just save a bit of money each month to go towards a new turn key engine. Roy of Mofoco.com commented in your thread here and he’s a good reputable engine builder. _________________ 69 Beetle - Daily driver
1600 SP (unknown history)
30 PICT 1 w/power circuit (Volkzbitz)
205T (Bill) |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9651 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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See how well you can observe details in the engine compartment with the camera flash on?
With so many cooling tins missing from the rear of the engine, I wonder if the cooling tins are present on the FRONT? The fan shroud and cooling system on your engine is "most likely" a "doghouse" system. The engine oil cooler is positioned on the left half of the engine. The hot air coming off the cooler to the left is diverted downward and forward via 2 sheetmetal ducts. You can easily feel for these ducts (engine off and cold) by reaching over the top of the left air cleaner towards the middle of the engine. You can also aim the camera in that area, and we should be able to see if the 2 ducts are in place. Hopefully so.
Here's a shot of the 2 ducts in place- the "triangular" duct above the "exit chute".
If those 2 ducts are not in place, you can see/feel the oil cooler inside its shroud cover-
4 of the 6 missing engine tins noted beforehand can easily be installed with the engine in place, using just a flat-blade screwdriver and those tin screws I listed before. One of the 4 tins requires removing the crankshaft pulley, so that you would need a large socket or adjustable wrench to get the large bolt off, then a pulley puller to remove the pulley without damaging it. You can keep the current, chromed fan shroud and cylinder cover tins for now and enjoy driving the car for the summer.
You can also fit an engine perimeter seal which does not require the engine to be removed. You first fit the 4 pieces of tin, then push the seal down into the gap between the tin edges and the body. Its a foam seal with an "H" profile, that you turn sideways and push into the gap. It's from a VW bus. This seal is about 3x as $$ as a proper Type 1 rubber seal, but for that you need to remove the engine. This bus seal is just as effective, and will get you driving with much more peace of mind much quicker. http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engine-Compartment-Se...11-225.htm
It appears as though the carb linkage crossbar has the arm for the throttle cable clocked 1/6 too high. The throttle cable is being pulled upward out of its tube with the carbs at idle position. The cable is thereby rubbing on the top lip of the metal tube that goes through the fan shroud. With this increased friction, it's possible that's one reason why there are 2 return springs. It's not difficult to reclock that arm 1/6 downward so that the barrel nut at the end lines up better with the throttle cable. You need to remove the crossbar from the carbs, use a small Allen wrench to loosen the throttle arm, slide it off one end of the crossbar, reclock it, slide it back down to the original position above the throttle cable, and gently tighten the Allen.
Back to the muffler. Your engine makes more power than a stock engine. Fitting a stock muffler will quiet the engine down. You'll lose "maxiumum potential" power, but you may still have a net gain over a stock engine due to the other modifications. If you install "taper tips" into the stock muffler, you reduce the overall restrictiveness slightly compared to original style "pea shooter" tips. http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Chrome-Tapered-Tail-Pipes-T1-Pair-p/tapered-tail-pipes.htm |
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73SlowBug Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2017 Posts: 439 Location: PENNSYLVANIA
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Your aftermarket exhaust has heat risers, but they aren't blocked off. I think that's part of your noise problem. I have the same muffler, and it is pretty loud, but yours isn't completely "muffled" with those ports open. Block off those ports and see if it helps the noise at all.
That's something easy to try first.
The tin is all pretty inexpensive. Since you don't have any rust, this shouldn't be too expensive or painful l to get your car in top shape. You just need engine tin pieces mostly. _________________ Daily driven....Slowly. |
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:13 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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@Rome,
Wow thank you so much for your informative post! I did try to take some pictures aiming down the back of the cooling tin but not sure what you can tell from these. I will try to get my arm down there to feel for what you mentioned.
I think I will attempt the stock muffler i bought. Any ideas what to use to plug up the holes for the heat risers I wont be using? Or if you even have to plug them?
Thanks again all!
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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73SlowBug wrote: |
Your aftermarket exhaust has heat risers, but they aren't blocked off. I think that's part of your noise problem. I have the same muffler, and it is pretty loud, but yours isn't completely "muffled" with those ports open. Block off those ports and see if it helps the noise at all.
That's something easy to try first.
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Thanks! So sorry to be dumb, but where do you see the heat risers not blocked off?
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017 Posts: 1966 Location: WV
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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imsjry wrote: |
73SlowBug wrote: |
Your aftermarket exhaust has heat risers, but they aren't blocked off. I think that's part of your noise problem. I have the same muffler, and it is pretty loud, but yours isn't completely "muffled" with those ports open. Block off those ports and see if it helps the noise at all.
That's something easy to try first.
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Thanks! So sorry to be dumb, but where do you see the heat risers not blocked off?
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In this picture, just left of the large black hose. See the silver 'plate' which has two holes through it on each side with a rust colored center spot? It is connected to the silver exhaust pipe. Just to the rear(towards rear of the car) of the shiny chrome cover seen in this picture as well.
That's the heat riser. Also there is one on the other side.
heat riser block off plates:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/3447.html _________________ 1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor
Last edited by AlmostHeavenWV_VW on Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:24 am; edited 3 times in total |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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No front engine cooling tin either, or thermostat linkage, likely no thermostat or flaps. Again, your first stop should be http://awesomepowdercoat.com/. There's no avoiding this. _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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So giving the person who installed the engine the benefit of the doubt, what would possibly be the reason he didn't install the Air Tin parts? I mean, why would someone who loves and works on multiple Bugs, go through all the trouble of restoring one and miss such an important, well known thing? It just makes no sense to me. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Heat risers are closed. They come that way so you're OK. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12856 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
imsjry wrote: |
73SlowBug wrote: |
Your aftermarket exhaust has heat risers, but they aren't blocked off. I think that's part of your noise problem. I have the same muffler, and it is pretty loud, but yours isn't completely "muffled" with those ports open. Block off those ports and see if it helps the noise at all.
That's something easy to try first.
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Thanks! So sorry to be dumb, but where do you see the heat risers not blocked off?
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In this picture, just left of the large black hose. See the silver 'plate' which has two holes through it on each side with a rust colored center spot? It is connected to the silver exhaust pipe. Just to the rear(towards rear of the car) of the shiny chrome cover seen in this picture as well.
That's the heat riser. Also there is one on the other side.
heat riser block off plates:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/3447.html |
Lots of times, on aftermarket headers, these risers are there but have to be drilled out to be open. It also looks as if they have been welded up. THe lack of carbon/soot suggests that these have not been drilled so there is no reason for the block off plates. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Murmsk Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019 Posts: 368 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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But if he replaces the existing muffler with a stock muffler the heat riserconnection will have to be blocked because his intake manifold lacks the connections.
I would suggest cutting two sheet metal covers to fit and use the gasket that comes with the muffler _________________ 1970 Convertible
1972 super
1946 Willys Jeep |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9651 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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^^ I agree. However, you still have the "chore" of drilling two 1/4" holes in each cover so that you can fasten it with two bolts into a stock muffler. Factory bolt size at that location is M6 x 1.0, about 3/4" long. Or, you can buy this cover set, made out of approx. 1/8" metal and already drilled for the mounting bolts.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Pre-Heat-Riser-Block-Off-Kit-Pair-p/pre-heat-block-off-kit.htm
OP, you photo'd the right side of the engine and shroud. The oil cooler and cover tin are on the LEFT side towards the front of the car. Just stand at the left rear fender and aim inwards, mirror image of what you did on this last set of photos. |
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Rome wrote: |
^^
OP, you photo'd the right side of the engine and shroud. The oil cooler and cover tin are on the LEFT side towards the front of the car. Just stand at the left rear fender and aim inwards, mirror image of what you did on this last set of photos. |
Ok not sure if these pictures did the job or not.
I also think I have bigger issues then the Air Tin and muffler swap. Took her for drive tonight and lots of sputtering when accelerating in all gears with gassy smelling exhaust after the sputters at times. It’s much cooler tonight here then any time I’ve driven it if that matters at all.
For more reference, I found out the seller restored the body but the engine was in the car when he got it.
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11740 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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To answer your question of why someone who loves and works on Bugs would not install the tins, I can only guess that he doesn’t love one he intends to sell, nor does he care as much as you think he does.
You may be measuring the former owner’s character, using your own sense of right and wrong. What others do, you may not do.
The thing is, he screwed up. You don’t have to question why. It’s not a big mystery, and it doesn’t matter why. He just screwed up, and if you keep trying to rationalize why he didn’t, you’ll screw up, too.
I had a number of things wrong with my bug when I first got it. I didn’t question why the previous owner didn’t do these things correctly—I just fixed them.
Sometimes, you just have to believe the facts placed before you, even if they’re inconvenient. Get the tins you need and install them. Work on the running of the engine once you have it protected from overheating.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 894 Location: Miami
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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OP, it is in your best interest to pull the motor. Pull it and get all the proper seals and tins in there. It's not that hard, don't be intimidated. Also, don't be an idiot like the previous owner and fry the motor trying to see if it will fix itself
You'll be glad you did.
-Frank |
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:33 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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That bottom photo shows an exposed oil cooler, which means more missing tin work.
Your best bet, as others have suggested, is to remove the engine and get all the tin on it properly.
I know it seems overwhelming, but it is not terribly hard to do. We aren't trying to overwhelm you, we are all just pointing out problems that are solvable, and that will help your experience be enjoyable! It will take a little bit of work to get there, but then you'll have a bug that is dependable and fun. _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
MAHLE Service Solutions
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imsjry Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2019 Posts: 44 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:45 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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Thanks all for the responses!
The Air Tin install is first on my list. I made the mistake of taking her for a short spin last night and the engine was sputtering when accelerating after shifting gears and had big gassy smell.
Would that be a symptom of overheating?
Trying to install the stock muffler is not low on the priority list, especially since the remote oil filer will be in the way of the heat riser hardware on the muffler. |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: Re: 1974 Muffler Change-Help Please! |
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imsjry wrote: |
The Air Tin install is first on my list. I made the mistake of taking her for a short spin last night and the engine was sputtering when accelerating after shifting gears and had big gassy smell.
Would that be a symptom of overheating?
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Not necessarily, it sounds like an engine in a poor state of tune more than anything.
Get ready to learn about valve adjustments, setting points, ignition timing, and carb tuning + balancing _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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