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Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1
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Zed999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
Zed999 wrote:
LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I emailed him a few weeks ago.

"Yes this system was designed for the street the motor in the add is a 2.666L daily driver
Thanks Mr.Bill"
Did you ask him where the alternator to power those fans is? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...


It's underneath, part of the kit. I didn't understand either, but saw the belt
I too saw the belt, I just couldn't imagine where there would be space down there for an alternator. It looks functional, but those fans somehow make it look like part of an air con unit. Not my worry of course, I drive a 2.4L type-4 powered bus with the original fan housing, but it's interesting.
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jpaull
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
jpaull wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
. Ray


Ray, Technically, If the 2.0 in the 914 is really a Porsche engine, why does it have the VW logo to the right of every engine number on all 2.0's?

Next, if you ignore the VW logo, what do you do with it? Grind it off to hide the evidence?
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When I baited people earlier with the "is it Porsche or VW", I didn't expect you would actually bite. You of all people ought to know better. Have some pride in VW's man and just give VW credit for it. Type 4, be it in a 411,412, bus, 914 or whatever is 100% Volkswagen Produced. If your blind to that little symbol showing who manufactured it, you should see the similarities in all type 4 blocks and know they are all Volkswagen.

If the Type 4 crowd didn't have people acting snooty calling their VW engines Porsche engines, it would be much more appealing to build one. They really do have great potential.


You DO realize dont you...that virtually every Porsche made since 1969 and even a few before that time....have a SLEW of parts in them ...one might say virtually every part....that has either and sometimes BOTH...the VW and Audi symbol right?

And yet...most of those parts are unique to the Porsche car they came in. Designed for it...and only fit on it.
So I guess by the token of having the VW symbol on its parts... none of the Porsches are Porsches...because they have VW/Audi logos on them....right?

Why can one not say that same issue...with a slew of parts having the Bosch orHella name on them...makes a car NOT made by X manufacturer?

The fact of the matter is....as I CLEARLY stated.....the 914 type 4 2.0 engine...is not found in any other VW. Only in Porsche.....and VW had been making parts for Porsche for decades before anyway....so is this saying that none of the Porsches are real....they are all VW?

Mot people are not aware....that that crappy little 90's econo box...the Hyundai Excel....has a transmission designed and for a while manufactured for them...by Porsche. And that the steering rack system for that car....was done by Lotus. Does that mean that we cannot call it a Hyundai....we must call it a Porsche/Lotus?

Likewise...the Dodge Omni-Horizon....(a competent shit box) had a 4 banger that clearly had the four rings stamped like 9" long in the valve cover....made in Europe (among several other engines that went into this car). Are we saying that the Omni was an Audi and not a REAL Dodge?

One should know by now....especially now...when Mercedes are built in Alabama....and my mom and dads new Audi A-6 S-line (a $73k sled)...was built in czech republic.....that exactly who manufacturers a part or platform where....has little to do with what it actually is.

If you show me an W or EA series type 4 engine....its both a VW anda Porsche part...but primarily VW. If you show me a GA series type 4 engine with 3 bolt heads...its a Porsche part...because it has always been a Porsche part regardless of who manufactured and designed it.

You swallowed your own "bait". You have to know the details before you start.... Wink Very Happy

Ray


Why did you take the picture out of my quote in your reply? Does it make it hard to argue that a 2.0 engine is a Porsche when it has a VW symbol prooving who manufactured it? I put the pictures back so everyone can see.

To say a the 2.0 is Porsche because it only came in a 914 Porsche so it must be Porsche is a JOKE! Because the 914 Is a VW-PORSCHE VENTURE".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_914
"Joint venture[edit]

"Originally intending to sell the vehicle with a flat four-cylinder engine as a Volkswagen and with a flat six-cylinder engine as a Porsche, Porsche decided during development that having Volkswagen and Porsche models sharing the same body would be risky for business in the American market, and convinced Volkswagen to allow them to sell both versions as Porsches in North America.


Everyone knows the 914 was made up of Mostly vw parts and a few Porsche parts. Porsche enthusiasts would laugh at anyone suggesting a 914 is a real Porsche. Taking the VW engine out of a 914, putting it in a bug, and telling people you have a Porsche engine is the same as taking the VW/audi engine out of a 924, putting it in a bug and calling it a Porsche engine. A person could, but everyone would think your a loser for saying it. Its low class, and demeaning to real Porsche quality engines that are manufactured by Porsche.

One last time, if anyone wants to know who manufactured their Type 4, Just look to the right of your engine number. If you have a VW symbol, its manufactured by VW. If anyone has a type 4 block showing "Porsche" I would love to see it.

Again, just look right here:
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Ray, All that being said, 100% of your "other" type 4 info is right on, and your contributions to the 411 forum are extremely helpful. (I have a 71 411 auto 1.7). Your long paragraphs regarding 411/VW Type 4 Cool VW Logo benefit many.
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bj
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Zed999 wrote:
LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I emailed him a few weeks ago.

"Yes this system was designed for the street the motor in the add is a 2.666L daily driver
Thanks Mr.Bill"
Did you ask him where the alternator to power those fans is? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...


the alternator is coupled to the crank pulley...from the pictures i saw of it.

BJ
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Comparing T1 to T4 prices isn't as straightforward as looking up individual parts prices for each because both base engines require different work to make similar power. The Type 4 has a very stout crankshaft that can be used as-is on anything. The same can't be said about the late Type 1 crank. Type 1 rods can be rebuilt and improved upon very easily, whereas it's probably more cost-effective to go with an aftermarket rod for T4 because of the weight. Type 4s are bulletproof, and can handle more boost than a Type 1 in stone stock form. The T4 crankcases need little work to make power beyond 200HP, whereas you'll consider pinning the mains on a Type 1. The bore spacing is superior on a T4, and can handle almost any bore you can imagine. The one downside is sealing large bores, but that's an issue with the T1 as well. I could go on...

I have a friend that builds performance T4s for customers. His average longblock price is $4500 for bored and stroked engines.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Nice.

flat4olsen wrote:
Trowing another stick in the fire.... Another option would be the type 5 engine, the WBX. They can be converted to air cooling with a bit of machine Work.
You get the look of a type 1 engine, but with the stronger WBX crank shaft (VW did WBX with 112 HK stock), a screw on oil filter, factory sand seal, 5 bolt flywheel, aluminium case etc.
Done right, its almost impossible to tell the difference between a type 1 and a type 5 "oxyboxer".

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I remember my mom telling me she didn’t buy a 911 or 912 because it had vw emblems on the glass in the headlights. She bought one of the first celica supras instead.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

flat4olsen wrote:
Trowing another stick in the fire.... Another option would be the type 5 engine, the WBX. They can be converted to air cooling with a bit of machine Work.
You get the look of a type 1 engine, but with the stronger WBX crank shaft (VW did WBX with 112 HK stock), a screw on oil filter, factory sand seal, 5 bolt flywheel, aluminium case etc.
Done right, its almost impossible to tell the difference between a type 1 and a type 5 "oxyboxer".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm surprise the aftermarket engine builders vendors, don't build this type 5 conversion as a long block. All they do is the same boring type 1 and a few type 4 conversion.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

crocteau wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Then comes mechanical beauty...... once a type 4 is converted to go onto type 1, its pretty damn ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the owner... Wink
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Well said. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Ebel wrote:
I remember my mom telling me she didn’t buy a 911 or 912 because it had vw emblems on the glass in the headlights. She bought one of the first celica supras instead.

That's funny.Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

APPLEGREENVW wrote:

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I'm surprise the aftermarket engine builders vendors, don't build this type 5 conversion as a long block. All they do is the same boring type 1 and a few type 4 conversion.



read through this build blog and you will see why. TONS of machine work that costs a lot of money. VW people are cheap. A QUALITY built type 1 or type 4 is already quite expensive, a comparable oxyboxer would most likely be even more expensive.

https://oxyboxer.wordpress.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

sled wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:

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I'm surprise the aftermarket engine builders vendors, don't build this type 5 conversion as a long block. All they do is the same boring type 1 and a few type 4 conversion.



read through this build blog and you will see why. TONS of machine work that costs a lot of money. VW people are cheap. A QUALITY built type 1 or type 4 is already quite expensive, a comparable oxyboxer would most likely be even more expensive.

https://oxyboxer.wordpress.com

I know, the conversion to the type 5 cost a lot of money, but it would be a nice option. If VW people are cheap, why is this guy and others still in business? https://www.classicvwbugs.com/ I don't get it. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

APPLEGREENVW wrote:
If VW people are cheap, why is this guy and others still in business? https://www.classicvwbugs.com/ I don't get it. Rolling Eyes

Chris, and companies like him have a limited number of customers.

I'll counter with, why are GEX and EMPI still in business.

Because VW people are CHEAP and accept crap because it's cheap.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
If VW people are cheap, why is this guy and others still in business? https://www.classicvwbugs.com/ I don't get it. Rolling Eyes

Chris, and companies like him have a limited number of customers.

I'll counter with, why are GEX and EMPI still in business.

Because VW people are CHEAP and accept crap because it's cheap.


Chris has a 2 or 3 year waiting list. What's so limited numbers of customers is that?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

APPLEGREENVW wrote:
Glenn wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
If VW people are cheap, why is this guy and others still in business? https://www.classicvwbugs.com/ I don't get it. Rolling Eyes

Chris, and companies like him have a limited number of customers.

I'll counter with, why are GEX and EMPI still in business.

Because VW people are CHEAP and accept crap because it's cheap.


Chris has a 2 or 3 year waiting list. What's so limited numbers of customers is that?

How many customers does he have in a year.... 10?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
Glenn wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
If VW people are cheap, why is this guy and others still in business? https://www.classicvwbugs.com/ I don't get it. Rolling Eyes

Chris, and companies like him have a limited number of customers.

I'll counter with, why are GEX and EMPI still in business.

Because VW people are CHEAP and accept crap because it's cheap.


Chris has a 2 or 3 year waiting list. What's so limited numbers of customers is that?

How many customers does he have in a year.... 10?

I don't know, or care to know. All I know is cheap VW people are willing paying 55K to 75K for a bug,from Chris.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

JPaull.....I frequently remove pictures from quoted posts...because I consider it a waste of space to keep reposting the same 3 pictures through a thread and having to fight through the crap just to read what you actually have to say.

And...respectfully you are incorrect.

Since about the mid 1960's...virtually all Porsche cars...not even looking at the 914...have used parts stamped VW, parts stamped Porsche and parts stamped a whole range of manufacturers. Its where the design was intended to be and was ONLY used that makes it what it is.

Same could be said for the Karmann ghia. VW...or Italian sports car? Yeah...we all know its a VW. Its body was designed by Ghia of Italy...for its intended use in the VW. The 914 design was actually "penned" by Gugelot Design of Germany. How come we dont call it a Gugelot?

VW and Porsche had joint development contract agreements going all the way back to day one at Porsche....Porsche doing engineering development for VW. VW needed the engineering and Porsche needed the work. VW needed to fufill its contract agreement for subbing out to Porsche and Porsche needed to replace the 912. However In reality the vast majority of "tech" in all Porsches of that time...partly...originally....jointly.... came from VW drawing boards.

Just spent half of last week flying between continents. How come We dont call the A-320, A-380 and other airliners a Rolls Royce?....it has Rolls Royce engines....right? Wink

The same Porsche philes that have been screaming blasphemy about the 914 since 1968....are paying prices that are pushing $30-40k for good examples...and early 911's routinely get spanked on the track by 914's...and the 914 spec of 2.0L 914 engine never came in any other car.

If you have one...its a Porche 914 engine. All of the others...1.7L and 1.8L...its just a VW type 4 engine that may also have fit in a 914. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

A good majority of the engines I see on this site have aftermarket cases, cranks, cams, P&C sets, heads, push rods and tubes, carbs, distributors, exhaust, cooling shroud and tins, etc.

They are not VWs by definition and should not be called so.

How's that for irony? Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
JPaull.....I frequently remove pictures from quoted posts...because I consider it a waste of space to keep reposting the same 3 pictures through a thread and having to fight through the crap just to read what you actually have to say.

And...respectfully you are incorrect.

Since about the mid 1960's...virtually all Porsche cars...not even looking at the 914...have used parts stamped VW, parts stamped Porsche and parts stamped a whole range of manufacturers. Its where the design was intended to be and was ONLY used that makes it what it is.

Same could be said for the Karmann ghia. VW...or Italian sports car? Yeah...we all know its a VW. Its body was designed by Ghia of Italy...for its intended use in the VW. The 914 design was actually "penned" by Gugelot Design of Germany. How come we dont call it a Gugelot?

VW and Porsche had joint development contract agreements going all the way back to day one at Porsche....Porsche doing engineering development for VW. VW needed the engineering and Porsche needed the work. VW needed to fufill its contract agreement for subbing out to Porsche and Porsche needed to replace the 912. However In reality the vast majority of "tech" in all Porsches of that time...partly...originally....jointly.... came from VW drawing boards.

Just spent half of last week flying between continents. How come We dont call the A-320, A-380 and other airliners a Rolls Royce?....it has Rolls Royce engines....right? Wink

The same Porsche philes that have been screaming blasphemy about the 914 since 1968....are paying prices that are pushing $30-40k for good examples...and early 911's routinely get spanked on the track by 914's...and the 914 spec of 2.0L 914 engine never came in any other car.

If you have one...its a Porche 914 engine. All of the others...1.7L and 1.8L...its just a VW type 4 engine that may also have fit in a 914. Ray

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
JPaull.....I frequently remove pictures from quoted posts...because I consider it a waste of space to keep reposting the same 3 pictures through a thread and having to fight through the crap just to read what you actually have to say.

And...respectfully you are incorrect.

Since about the mid 1960's...virtually all Porsche cars...not even looking at the 914...have used parts stamped VW, parts stamped Porsche and parts stamped a whole range of manufacturers. Its where the design was intended to be and was ONLY used that makes it what it is.

Same could be said for the Karmann ghia. VW...or Italian sports car? Yeah...we all know its a VW. Its body was designed by Ghia of Italy...for its intended use in the VW. The 914 design was actually "penned" by Gugelot Design of Germany. How come we dont call it a Gugelot?

VW and Porsche had joint development contract agreements going all the way back to day one at Porsche....Porsche doing engineering development for VW. VW needed the engineering and Porsche needed the work. VW needed to fufill its contract agreement for subbing out to Porsche and Porsche needed to replace the 912. However In reality the vast majority of "tech" in all Porsches of that time...partly...originally....jointly.... came from VW drawing boards.

Just spent half of last week flying between continents. How come We dont call the A-320, A-380 and other airliners a Rolls Royce?....it has Rolls Royce engines....right? Wink

The same Porsche philes that have been screaming blasphemy about the 914 since 1968....are paying prices that are pushing $30-40k for good examples...and early 911's routinely get spanked on the track by 914's...and the 914 spec of 2.0L 914 engine never came in any other car.

If you have one...its a Porche 914 engine. All of the others...1.7L and 1.8L...its just a VW type 4 engine that may also have fit in a 914. Ray


Its a Porsche 914's engine Manufactured by 100% VW.

If you want to say the car the engine resides in, determines what you call the engine, I see your rational. I just don't agree. Its demeaning to VW's TYPE 4 contribution on their own and giving false credit to Porsche. Did Porsche Make that engine? NO.

Its also something that people of low class do to boost their ego by saying their VW manufactured engine is manufactured by Porsche, trying to earn status to "rise above lowly VW" when its still made by VW, which is stupid. These are the kinds of people that would grind off the multiple vw logos all over their type 4 case, and put a Porsche emblem on it trying to suggest it was actually MANUFACTURED by Porsche.

As you mentioned, 914's value/performance is much better then Porsche 911's. So be proud of the Type 4 and it being made by VW instead of Porsche.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

People are funny things!

I was at a VW meet last summer and there was a fellow there that I was amused by. He had a very nice example of an original 356 that was virtually untouched even down to original paint - but it had a type 4 engine! Being a "Posche" guy among VWs he was pleasant enough but a little stand off-ish. Not very talkative.

I suspect he was caught between two worlds, didn't fit with the real Porsche guys but maybe didn't feel quite at home with the lowly VWs either! This dilemma has been faced by the 914 guys ever since they came out and the owners of the 924, 944, 928 series that came later were in the same boat as well.

By the way, how many 924 owners said they were driving an Audi? Or owners of the 1700cc Horizon/Omni cars said they had VW Rabbits? 3.5 liter Rover owners claim to be running GMs?

In my view if that is the car the engine came out of then that is the engine make because the manufacturer of the car chose that engine.
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