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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2780 Location: North Carolina
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wcdennis Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Winston-Salem NC
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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This is one of my favorite threads on a ground problem: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=710245
The owner was having trouble with his brake lines heating up when he tried to start. His van had a good ground strap, but it was not actually connected to the transmission, only between two bolts on the frame. The brake lines had become the only working ground connection for the starter and they could hardly carry the load, so they got red hot. Bad grounds can make for some strange symptoms. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Thanks wcdennis, that was fun (sorry to OP). When you already know the answer it's like cheating though.
Syncroshop told me "take a jumper cable and put it on the manifold and ground the other end to the body.
Does the symptom go away?
If yes, then drive home like that".
(it did, and I measured 2+ volts on it).
From: Trouble Starting and Melting Brake Lines??
?Waldo? wrote: |
that also means that the same amount of electricity that was melting the brake hoses was also most likely arcing through the relatively bad connections of the wheel bearing rollers to races and the CV balls to races. The lifespan of those parts has also very likely been significantly shortened. |
Possibly through some bearings inside the transaxle too. The starter was turning some of those bearings during this time. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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pbrown Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2008 Posts: 443 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Sodo wrote: |
Syncroshop told me "take a jumper cable and put it on the manifold and ground the other end to the body.
Does the symptom go away?
If yes, then drive home like that".
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I had that on an old 914 when in high school. I had just installed the engine and the starter would just click. It took me a few days before I added a jumper cable from the engine to the chassis and Vroom. We're so spoiled to have the Internet these days. _________________ Patrick Brown
1986 Westy Syncro EJ25
Flickr --> https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQNUXEF |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Here's the specific post:
and there's another useful 10c post six posts down.
Who has grounded their starter and where on the body?
Got pics?
I can see a decent location nearby, drilling a body crimp. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3549 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Sodo wrote: |
Here's the specific post:
and there's another useful 10c post six posts down.
Who has grounded their starter and where on the body?
Got pics?
I can see a decent location nearby, drilling a body crimp. |
. On my Tin Top, Previous Owner added heavy cable from under starter mounting bolt to body connection under the trans ground bolt.
I’m still going to add a thin braided strap from the engine to the body even though there is the small stock braided cable from the engine to under the coil already.
I will also redo the Altn. Wiring and add the fuse to the stud circuit in the power distribution box as advised by others here. _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Sodo wrote: |
...Who has grounded their starter and where on the body?... |
Me. Here.
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Dang Ahwanee that's a drier location than I chose.
I was under the van,,,, shoulda opened the engine compartment.
I wish you posted a few hours sooner.
Well anyway I'm done and here it is, all under the van and I suppose it will work.
I ran a #2 wire from the starter out to the frame crimp. I sealed it all tight with Eclectic Products "ShooGoo". Eclectic also markets this product under the industrial name "E-6000" that makes your shop look more professional.
You can see the Passenger side drive axle and the starter - that's all you need to focus on.
This pic could be confusing to many van owners. This van has a Smallcar bellhousing and a Subaru starter, and that finned thing to the left is a transaxle oil pump. Try to ignore that stuff and focus on the ground going from the starter bolt to the body.
Started with this from the FLAPS.
$10 for a attery wire and $4 for the 8mm terminal.
At 16 inches it's 3x as long as the original transaxle ground, so might as well use #2 to ensure no losses.
The #2 gauge cable has a 3/8" (10mm) eye for the starter bolt
The #2 gauge terminal ends have 5/16" (8mm) eyes.
Cut battery clamp off at 16 inches and prepared the end for crimping.
Crimped by 6 hard hammer blows on a 17mm open-end wrench, into a rounded saddle (angle-iron).
It's TIGHT.
Cleaned off the frame shiny with a flapper wheel on the angle grinder
Since the frame hole was a wide slot I sealed the entire bolt connection with "E-6000".
=========
Now I'm gonna DELETE that front transaxle ground so there's
no possible path for current to EVER cross
ANY transaxle bearings or CV or wheel bearings. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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handjammer Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2018 Posts: 44 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Thanks for posting this.
I've been fixing more of PO's electrical mishaps the last few weeks and noted that my subie conversion wiring diagram shows grounds for both the alternator and the starter. I was surprised to discover the transmission ground was the only one in my van.
I had already fashioned ground straps for the starter/alternator and was contemplating where to put them when I saw this post. I decided to route the starter ground into the engine bay as well.
Also, Home Depot has braided wiring in a various sizes on huge spools and sold by the foot. Copper lugs on the same aisle. _________________ '87 tintop syncro w/ EJ22 |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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any and all FLAPS have some ground cables with bolt lugs on each end already in varied lengths.
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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handjammer Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2018 Posts: 44 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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We must have the worst FLAPs in Seattle. All the cables I could find were either too short (6" for 2AWG), too skinny (>4AWG), or had the "wrong" lugs like in SoDo's picture.
Home Depot had some really nice braided wiring on the spool, up to 2/0 AWG. _________________ '87 tintop syncro w/ EJ22 |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1491 Location: pnw
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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ive had good luck with amazon for some of those - used to live in the boonies and had limited local availability. if you search welding cable, its probably similar to what youre seeing at home depot, but there are a few vendors on amazon who have precrimped cable in a number of different gauges and lengths _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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visit your local version of "farm & fleet" or "Tractor supply"
https://www.tractorsupply.com/
handjammer wrote: |
We must have the worst FLAPs in Seattle. All the cables I could find were either too short (6" for 2AWG), too skinny (>4AWG), or had the "wrong" lugs like in SoDo's picture.
Home Depot had some really nice braided wiring on the spool, up to 2/0 AWG. |
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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handjammer wrote: |
We must have the worst FLAPs in Seattle |
Autozone had it in Seattle’s armpit (White Center).
McLendons White Center has the raw materials, fine-strand 2/0 cable too. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Some grounds discussion & quotes taken from Vanagon Nut's thread: Gas Engine Ground Strap: Provides Ground For?
=================
djkeev wrote: |
Hmmm...... not saying it can't happen or won't happen but transaxle bearings being damaged by operating the starter isn't something I've heard of before. |
Starter currrent traveling thru bearings doesn't cause catastrophic failure, the damage would be micro-pits each time the starter is cranked. Then, rather than disassembling the transaxle immediately (for inspection with a microscope after cranking the starter) you drive the van, bearings roll, and the evidence gets burnished away.
You won't see it and it's no surprise that nobody has heard of it.
Only the antiquer...... --->would even THINK about it<---.
I think the more telling motivation might be, that it's bad systems design.
Major current items are properly grounded directly at the component of major current draw.
Starter being grounded at the starter housing.
A starter grounded 5 or 6 bolted joints away, is just "wrong".
Perhaps convenient, but wrong.
And doing it right is just "easy".
And a great Samba project too.
"Slow death" injuries never make the news.
One Van's transaxle lasted 150k miles, another lasted 240k miles.
Why? Probably many contributors, and this is just one.
Probably less significant than "never changing the gear oil" (which was very popular and convenient too).
File it under "Death from a thousand cuts".
It's a small contributor, and one that accumulates as corrosion increases between the transaxle housings.
Remember that resistance is ADDITIVE.
Every passing day, you can be sure that the resistance across 4 or 5 magnesium connections has increased.
If resistance increased one milliohm every day that's 11 ohms after 30 years.
And it could get much worse after a trans rebuild.
Compare a trans rebuild to assembly at VW with all newly machined housing faces, new clean studs, new clean nuts.
No rebuilder sands down a single housing face, or nut-surface for electrical concerns.
They want it to NOT LEAK oil. That's all.
They are ONLY thinking about insulating it even MORE.
Not grounds - grounds are YOUR responsibility.
Whereas if you add one robust copper wire ground from the starter, you KNOW its the best it can be.
djkeev wrote: |
One would think that VW would have addressed such an issue during the fifty/sixty years that they used the nose cone ground strap if it were a real problem. |
It's similar to rust that happens 30 years later. Clearly VW thought their design was "good enough".
And it was.
The customer was satisfied by the 90,000 mile performance of the vehicle.
So is that a good reason to ignore incremental improvements that can reduce further. rusting?
If a rust improvement was "this easy" wouldn't you "just do it"?
djkeev wrote: |
Adding grounds isn't a bad thing for a weak ground can make all sorts of problems. Starting, operation, lighting, turn signals, etc. |
Adding the right grounds, in the right places, is good sense. The right places are:
1) Starter -Highest current device on the van. Ground the starter.
2) Alternator. -Second highest current device on the van, and every amp the van has ever seen, comes from the alternator. (except when you charge with outside sources) I think I read that Tencent made this point some time ago. Prob crazyvwvanman too.
All other grounds are miniscule in comparison (for current draw).
There's headlights, fan motors, etc.
They have grounds.
By adding robust grounds at the starter and alternator, you reduce risk of overloading the OTHER grounds.
MarkWard wrote: |
I don’t believe additional grounds are load balancing. It’s more about eliminating resistance. |
Agreed.
The only time there can be load balancing is when one last ground is insufficient in current-carrying capacity.
This can happen by degrading (adding resistance over time).
Like a chain of 4 or 5 magnesium housing interfaces, all old, and all additive.
(for an absurd example)
Note we HAVE an absurd example of a poor grounding choice, AND this absurd exmple adds possible bearing degradation!
Proper design eliminates resistance, especially at the items of highest current. The starter is far and away the highest.
Alternator is second.
MarkWard wrote: |
some engines passing grounds through the head fasteners can have issues. |
The problem was likely a poor "major ground" elsewhere that had high resistance. Where there's not enough ground remaining for the spark, so the spark weakens during cranking.
Or maybe while the battery is REAL hungry and accepting a lot of alternator amps,...so the spark gets weaker during heavy-charging intervals.
Having a "major ground" at the cylinder head (considering there can be corrosion around a headgasket area) is a similar "poor design" to the nose of the transaxle. It's OK when everything is factory new, but NOT OK when everything is old. And SOLVED by a major, and MAINTAINED ground at the Alternator.
Anyway robust Starter grounds and robust Alternator grounds, are kinda slam-dunk mods, right?
They can eliminate other confounding electrical puzzles.
AND they're easy.
AND they don't compromise safety.
AND if you MAINTAIN these two grounds (check them/ clean them periodically), then the other grounds don't matter as much because they will never be overloaded.
OK there ya go, every possible reason to start a simple Samba project!
Dang I better let you fellers off the hook, plus I'm dying to paint some bedrooms today (not procrastinating I promise!!) _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Assuming one uses a pre made wire or makes one with properly swaged and protected terminals where wire enters.....
Have folks found any long term wear issues (vibration, time) with using coated wire between transaxle front mount and frame instead of a braided ground strap? e.g. wire failure where it enters terminal?
#2 or larger AWG would suffice for this?
Thanks,
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7404 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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This thread and the links to similar threads have been helpful. One of my precious volts recently went missing between the engine and the transmission nose ground strap. After a thorough cleaning of the transmission ground strap, new fasteners, washers, etc. I'm still missing a half volt or so. I'll start by providing a new path from the alternator to the body, battery and ECU (bostig). Next may be a starter to body ground strap.
Interestingly, my missing volt occurred around the same time the TDI starter with Westy Ventures adapter was installed and I surfed the undercarriage cleaning some connections (starter, trans ground strap, alternator, etc.). Subsequently I noticed battery and OBDII volts running about 13.5 volts, or 1 volt less than usual.
Here's hoping all is back to normal after new ground straps are installed tomorrow. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Has anyone wondered why the left side cylinder head has a dedicated ground wire to the chassis and the right hand side has none?
The cylinder heads are insulated from the engine block by gaskets or head bolt yellow goo. The rockers and pushrods are insulated with oil.
When your spark plugs spark..there has to be a ground.
The right hand side head is joined with the block with the alternator bracket.
The left hand side head has nothing other than that ground wire.
Be sure that LH ground wire is in good condition.. _________________ 'Let's Go Brandon' |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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Spark plugs are very low current though.
Not as affected by resistance as a starter motor (high current). _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7404 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? |
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danfromsyr wrote: |
any and all FLAPS have some ground cables with bolt lugs on each end already in varied lengths.
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handjammer wrote: |
We must have the worst FLAPs in Seattle. All the cables I could find were either too short (6" for 2AWG), too skinny (>4AWG), or had the "wrong" lugs like in SoDo's picture.
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My Advance auto parts had a total of two 4 ga cables with ring terminals (32" long and 48" long) and one 6 ga cable with ring terminals for a total of three such cables in the store so don't count on finding an assortment in varied lengths at any and all FLAPS.
hehe, you said local Tractor Supply to someone who lives in Seattle, that's like saying visit your local Walmart. No Walmarts and no Tractor Supply stores in Seattle so nothing is really local and Tractor Supply or Walmart each require a 60-90 minute slog in traffic from my house (granted, our bridge is out for a few years making things worse).
Last June when i needed battery cables in rural Wisconsin for Mom's John Deere I found dozens at Blaine's Farm and Fleet. When I needed a battery cables in Seattle, I made 'em myself.
It takes self-reliance and ingenuity to make do in the city.
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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