| Author |
Message |
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
 |
|
| Thompson2 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Check that the brake push rod has the proper gap from the master cylinder. If too tight, the rear shoes will drag. |
If it’s still single circuit (upgrade is still in transit), would the push rod cause only the rears drag? Seems like it’d be both. Or is there something I’m missing in how the system works?
When the new MC goes on, there’ll be some heavy double checking, for sure. |
Back in 1985 got our DEC62 built single cab out of a back yard of an old sign painter. Rebuilt the brakes since they had been sitting for nine years. Bought all the parts from the local VW dealer, including the single circuit MC. Once running the rear wheels kept dragging. Asked the mechanics at the VW dealership about the problem and none of them had any idea. Checked the Bentley Official Service Manual for 1966-69 beetle and found:
| Quote: |
| WARNING ----The compensating port must always be open when brake system is at rest. Otherwise expanding hot brake fluid will cause the brakes to drag. |
Had to actually slight bend the stock pedal stop forward a tad to get the proper gap/play, and the rear brake stopped dragging. Think the rear brakes return springs are a bit weaker than the fronts. So the rear brakes expand outward first.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:03 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Thompson2 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Check that the brake push rod has the proper gap from the master cylinder. If too tight, the rear shoes will drag. |
If it’s still single circuit (upgrade is still in transit), would the push rod cause only the rears drag? Seems like it’d be both. Or is there something I’m missing in how the system works?
When the new MC goes on, there’ll be some heavy double checking, for sure. |
Back in 1985 got our DEC62 built single cab out of a back yard of an old sign painter. Rebuilt the brakes since they had been sitting for nine years. Bought all the parts from the local VW dealer, including the single circuit MC. Once running the rear wheels kept dragging. Asked the mechanics at the VW dealership about the problem and none of them had any idea. Checked the Bentley Official Service Manual for 1966-69 beetle and found:
| Quote: |
| WARNING ----The compensating port must always be open when brake system is at rest. Otherwise expanding hot brake fluid will cause the brakes to drag. |
Had to actually slight bend the stock pedal stop forward a tad to get the proper gap/play, and the rear brake stopped dragging. Think the rear brakes return springs are a bit weaker than the fronts. So the rear brakes expand outward first. |
That's pretty interesting. Would never have guessed that. I'll give that adjustment a shot before I tear everything back apart... Pretty sure all the parts are original, so hopefully I can get it to move. If not, most of it is getting ripped out anyway.. just won't be able to driver her until then... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:32 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
I spent a bit of time under the bus looking at the brakes yesterday because there was an interesting twist in the whole "rear brake lockup" thing" I found that, without ever leaving the driveway, I could get the rears to lock up simply by applying a lot of pressure to the brake pedal (like I'm trying to stop at an intersection when the light turns yellow, not like I'm gonna run over an old lady).
It was easy to replicate and only affects the rear brakes. Fronts are still functional and free spinning when this happens.
I checked for push rod play before doing anything and there was about 2mm of slop between the brake pedal and the stop "tab" on the frame. After stomping on the brakes, there's no play in the push rod at all.
Cracking open the bleeders on the rears freed them up, but I had to crack both of them to get both sides free. I would have expected that opening one side would have freed them both? Maybe I didn't leave the one open long enough or is there some other subtlety that I've overlooked?
I'm thinking at this point that the single circuit MC is thrashed, which is fine since it's getting replaced... or should I be looking at ordering more parts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zozo
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2005
Posts: 5217
Location: South of Ol' San Antonio
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| How old are your soft lines? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:06 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| zozo wrote: |
| How old are your soft lines? |
Old. I have new ones that’ll go on with the new MC and front brakes (fronts were much worse than the rears and have been replaced) . Maybe I’ll swap them beforehand to see if that fixes it. That’d make sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crofty
Judas of the North
Joined: August 09, 2000
Posts: 19672
Location: Land of Whine and Phonies
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:15 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
Are you going back to a single MC?
_________________
Your Vanagon sucks, Stop waving at me.
| HamburgerBrad wrote: |
I slept on crofty's tent once. I passed out drunk from two bottles of Everett's brother's wine. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| crofty wrote: |
| Are you going back to a single MC? |
Oh heck no... dual circuit plus front disc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
Well, we have a winner (loser?) with the rear brakes. I wanted to get the problem with them sorted out before doing the front disc conversion, so I went ahead and swapped out the soft lines.
DING! DING! DING!
That was it. Despite LOOKING better than the front, they were, in fact, shit. When I pulled them off it tried to blow through them (which was pretty easy on the new lines). No luck..even trying as hard as I could without popping a blood vessel. Stepped it up a notch and hit them with 100psi from the air compressor. Nada. Bupkus. Zilch. No freakin’ wonder this thing was a terror to stop....
So, I busted out the razor cutters and hacked them into little bits, both to vent a bit of frustration and to see what was going on. This is what I found for about 1 1/2” from one end. I didn’t mark the hoses, but I’m assuming this was the drum end...
Shocking that this thing never ended up wrapped around a tree somewhere...
A quick test drive post swap and she stops like a reasonably modern vehicle with drum brakes, there’s a bit more travel in the pedal than I’d like (there was only about 2” before) but I think that’s just an indication that the rears need a bit more adjustment and some time to properly seat.
Was I imagining it, or was there a picture of someone with sandpaper taped inside the drum to shape the shoes? Might give that a try before I order a new set of hardware. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
So a follow on question to the leaking axle boots... when I was swapping the rear brake lines, I slid the boots back up the axles as per E&B but no luck. Still leaks when it’s up in the air, but not when it’s on the ground. I did notice that the end of the boot looks like the inner diameter is a bit too small and so the ends don’t quite seal... is it supposed to be like this or were these replaced with a crappy versions and / or a completely wrong part? here’s a pic since I’m sure that makes very little sense...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j.pickens
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2002
Posts: 9789
Location: Exit 7, New Jersey
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:34 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
I've given up on adjusting the boots while jacked up. They just leak when at that angle. The important thing is to wipe them down when put back on the ground, and check for leaks then. And again after driving around s bit.
_________________
Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
BBX BBXII and BBXXI Long Distance Award Winner
| BeaterBarndoor wrote: |
i wish more people would actually drive their vws rather than just talking about what they have in the garage. |
| Red Fau Veh wrote: |
If you've seen one sunroof swivel seat kombi, you've seen them all!  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69813
Location: Phoenix Metro
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:38 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
I usually have the screw part of the screw clamp really close to the seam so it pulls the seam together as you tighten it.
Maybe try rotating the clamp and see it that works?
Not my pic or Bus and I typically angle the axle boot seam at the side plate bolt at 1-2 o'clock but like this:
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
Should not be a gap there. Have had to kind of massage that area closed while installing new boots just when tightening the clamps. By now with age and rubber hardening that probably will not be possible. Also good to use a sealant in that seam as VW advises, have used RTV for that.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| EverettB wrote: |
I usually have the screw part of the screw clamp really close to the seam so it pulls the seam together as you tighten it.
Maybe try rotating the clamp and see it that works?
Not my pic or Bus and I typically angle the axle boot seam at the side plate bolt at 1-2 o'clock but like this: |
I can give that a try. I’m not overly concerned since it only happens when I lift it and don’t support the axles. If it won’t close up, I’ll see what it’d take to swap it. I’m assuming draining the transaxle would be necessary so maybe when I change the gear oil.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Should not be a gap there. Have had to kind of massage that area closed while installing new boots just when tightening the clamps. By now with age and rubber hardening that probably will not be possible. Also good to use a sealant in that seam as VW advises, have used RTV for that. |
I’ll see if it can be “persuaded” to close up. Pretty sure rtv won’t stick at this point unless I pull the boot and clean it first... and if I decide I need to go that route, I’d get replacements so I wouldn’t have to futz with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
RTV will not stick without using some greaser that more than likely will damage the rubber.
Have used a flat tip screwdriver that is worn on the tip edges to keep from cutting into the rubber to push the edges around some. Orienting the hose clamp to help at same time will help.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
This little diagram comes in some of the axle boot packages. I stuck it in my Bentley to remind me. The clamp's position pulls the two seams together. I put a little tiny bit of grease on the tube so the suface will slide. Don't overtighten or undertighten.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69813
Location: Phoenix Metro
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| BarryL wrote: |
This little diagram comes in some of the axle boot packages. I stuck it in my Bentley to remind me. The clamp's position pulls the two seams together. I put a little tiny bit of grease on the tube so the suface will slide. Don't overtighten or undertighten.
|
Slick! That picture totally makes sense... once you see it, everything else is nonsense... 
Hopefully mine are still pliable enough to move and haven’t taken a permanent funky set. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:14 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
| BarryL wrote: |
This little diagram comes in some of the axle boot packages. I stuck it in my Bentley to remind me. The clamp's position pulls the two seams together. I put a little tiny bit of grease on the tube so the suface will slide. Don't overtighten or undertighten.
|
Worked like a charm... even on my old boots. Interestingly, when I completely loosened the clamps - I had to remove them to flip them around so I could get to the clamp drive with a screwdriver - they relaxed and slip back up the tube about 1/4". This was even after me having loosened the clamps a bit before and tried to shove the boot up (per E&B's suggestion).
Haven't put her back up in the air to see if this fixed the leaks I was having though.. but either way, it's better than it was.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thompson2
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:21 am Post subject: Re: My 63 Subhatch Flipseat |
|
|
Next fun one... as I cleaning up around the transaxle (only got about a pound of grease soaked gunk off of it so far), I noticed something odd around the nose of the starter. There's a chunk of what looks like a spacer / washer lying in the area. I only had time to snap a couple of quick pics last night. If deemed troubling enough, I'll spend some time with it tonight or tomorrow to pull the starter and clean up the area...
Any ideas on what this is/was and whether I should be concerned? It's in the bottom right of the cutout for the starter. In the first pic, it's standing up. Second shot it's lying down so you can get an idea of the thickness...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
