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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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I would not waste your time/money on cleaning/flushing anything. With that much debris, there is something that is not right and the only way you are going to find the cause is to disassemble it.
Something is obviously wrong. Certainly more than Type F. |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Butcher wrote: |
I would not waste your time/money on cleaning/flushing anything. With that much debris, there is something that is not right and the only way you are going to find the cause is to disassemble it. |
Thanks for the insight, and obviously not what I wanted to hear.
Butcher wrote: |
Something is obviously wrong. Certainly more than Type F. |
On this point...I was hoping that somebody with more knowledge of the automatic transmissions internal working than myself could at least help me determine where to look.
For example, since it didn't slip for 3k miles, then suddenly started slipping, what could have caused this? Having removed the valve body I would have expected to see much more than silver dust if something catastrophically broke. i.e. thrust washer pieces, gear teeth, etc.
If I assembly the transmission wrong, I wouldn't have expected it to work flawlessly for 3k miles.
Before I opened it up I was wondering if the torque converter could be to blame, but I don't see how that would cause the transmission to chew up clutch plates.
I realize these may be rhetorical questions until breaking into the transmission, but any additional insight appreciated. _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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vwhammer Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 998 Location: Boulder CO.
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Butcher wrote: |
I would not waste your time/money on cleaning/flushing anything. With that much debris, there is something that is not right and the only way you are going to find the cause is to disassemble it.
Something is obviously wrong. Certainly more than Type F. |
I am inclined to disagree.
yes you may waste some money on trans fluid but dropping the valve body and flushing the fluid is a whole lot easier than dropping and rebuilding a trans and in my opinion totally worth a shot.
On another note, h00drat, you might give Matt at Matt Steedle Transmissions a call and explain to him what happened.
He was more than helpful every time that I have talked to him.
http://mattsteedletransmissions.com/ |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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vwhammer wrote: |
Butcher wrote: |
I would not waste your time/money on cleaning/flushing anything. With that much debris, there is something that is not right and the only way you are going to find the cause is to disassemble it.
Something is obviously wrong. Certainly more than Type F. |
I am inclined to disagree.
yes you may waste some money on trans fluid but dropping the valve body and flushing the fluid is a whole lot easier than dropping and rebuilding a trans and in my opinion totally worth a shot.
On another note, h00drat, you might give Matt at Matt Steedle Transmissions a call and explain to him what happened.
He was more than helpful every time that I have talked to him.
http://mattsteedletransmissions.com/ |
Cool! Thanks for the tip.
To your point, I already dropped and cleaned the valve body (last night) and it's back in the van. All I have left is throwing the new filters in, which should arrive today, and new fluid. That said, I tend to agree that all I have to lose in trying it is the $17 I spent on fluid, and another 2 hours of my life. Better than assuming the worst and pulling the whole transmission. _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16883 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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vwhammer wrote: |
I am inclined to disagree.
yes you may waste some money on trans fluid but dropping the valve body and flushing the fluid is a whole lot easier than dropping and rebuilding a trans and in my opinion totally worth a shot. |
squealing noise inside a unit full of fluid = mechanical failure. save the $$ and tear it down. something clearly turned into a shredder in there and loaded the ting with swarf. why do any more damage? _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1948 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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vwhammer wrote: |
On another note, h00drat, you might give Matt at Matt Steedle Transmissions a call and explain to him what happened.
He was more than helpful every time that I have talked to him.
http://mattsteedletransmissions.com/ |
Matt Steedle is great, but he only works on manual transmissions (we're talking about automatics here).
kourt |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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all I can see this doing is grinding more swarf out of wherever it's being removed from.
better to drink $17 or your favorite beverage and get on with R&R the transaxle.
h00drat wrote: |
To your point, I already dropped and cleaned the valve body (last night) and it's back in the van. All I have left is throwing the new filters in, which should arrive today, and new fluid. That said, I tend to agree that all I have to lose in trying it is the $17 I spent on fluid, and another 2 hours of my life. Better than assuming the worst and pulling the whole transmission. |
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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vwhammer Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 998 Location: Boulder CO.
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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kourt wrote: |
vwhammer wrote: |
On another note, h00drat, you might give Matt at Matt Steedle Transmissions a call and explain to him what happened.
He was more than helpful every time that I have talked to him.
http://mattsteedletransmissions.com/ |
Matt Steedle is great, but he only works on manual transmissions (we're talking about automatics here).
kourt |
He rebuilt the diff section on my auto trans and post pics all the time on instagram of autos that he has rebuilt. |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1948 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Got it--I stand corrected. And even though his website says:
"I'm dedicated to providing reliable, high quality manual transaxles and service. I specialize in all models of VW, and many other manufacturers of manual transaxles."
...he does have a photo of an automatic transaxle on there. Good to know this is another resource for our community. Thanks for chiming in.
kourt |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Did you check the pressures per the manual? That swarf is bad. Your description of moving and not sounds like the splines on the pump shaft or turbine shaft failed. Flush it till the cows come home. It’s toast. Sorry. If you do put it together, put a pressure gauge on it using the test port. _________________ ☮️ |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Just my 2 cents...That is a lot of swarf in the pan for 3k miles. It looks like fiber/friction material and some bright metals too.
It looks like the clutch pack(s) are wearing out rapidly.
I have seen this when I internationally tightened up the clutch pack(s) end play to get a more firm shift. I played with the "C" clip thickness and pressure plate thickness. The experiment did not do well. The forward clutch and D/R clutch wore out very quickly.
If possible I use the tighter end of spec. No more.
I dont think a flush and fill will help. The torque converter will be full of junk and will re-distribute that mess again and again.
Bite the bullet and carefully disassemble the transmission. Find out what happened. On reassembly check that the correctly marked frictions are in the correct clutch packs and the end play is good.
And get a rebuilt torque converter or have a reputable shop flush out your old TC. The contamination in the TC, if reused, can damage a perfectly rebuilt transmission. |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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I can assure you all that metal and clutch parts are not from the valve body. By spending the time and effort to R&R and D&A the valve body to clean it, will not result in finding the root cause of all the material that is floating around.
It is possible that the valve body caused a clutch failure, but you still need to find the cause of all that swarf. That can only be done with a disassembly.
Do as you wish but it is a total waste of time unless you are a unscrupulous used car lot. |
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vwhammer Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 998 Location: Boulder CO.
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
squealing noise inside a unit full of fluid = mechanical failure. save the $$ and tear it down. something clearly turned into a shredder in there and loaded the ting with swarf. why do any more damage? |
Butcher wrote: |
It is possible that the valve body caused a clutch failure, but you still need to find the cause of all that swarf. That can only be done with a disassembly. |
AtlasShrugged wrote: |
Just my 2 cents...That is a lot of swarf in the pan for 3k miles. It looks like fiber/friction material and some bright metals too. |
MarkWard wrote: |
Did you check the pressures per the manual? That swarf is bad. |
danfromsyr wrote: |
all I can see this doing is grinding more swarf out of wherever it's being removed from.
better to drink $17 or your favorite beverage and get on with R&R the transaxle. |
via Imgflip Meme Generator |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6360 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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kourt wrote: |
Got it--I stand corrected. And even though his website says:
"I'm dedicated to providing reliable, high quality manual transaxles and service. I specialize in all models of VW, and many other manufacturers of manual transaxles."
...he does have a photo of an automatic transaxle on there. Good to know this is another resource for our community. Thanks for chiming in.
kourt |
Yup, he gets the plastic thrust washers from me _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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sandcough Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Matt did a great job on my automatic. Highly recommended. |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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vwhammer Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 998 Location: Boulder CO.
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Well kiddos I finally got around to starting to reassemble my trans but I found something that I don't think anyone has mentioned in this thread.
I will get to that in a sec but first...
If anyone was paying attention, you may recall that the frictions and steels in the direct drive assembly from my Audi trans were pretty wrecked.
Here are some pic of the steels that I did not show before.
A pic of the only good one in the bunch compared to the bad one.
Also found some concerning marks on the final thick plate for the pack.
For starters it looks like it is scratched all to poop.
There are a lot of marks that just look like scratches
Then there are all of these weird marks that look like it is coated in glass and it cracked.
I am going to take it to work tomorrow and check it out under the microscope and maybe do a little light sanding on one of our surface plates to see if I can clean it up some without removing too much material.
I believe on this pack the play in the pack is actually adjusted by picking retaining rings of different thicknesses.
I might be able to take enough off that it won't matter but worst case I have to find a new ring of proper thickness and diameter.
Anyway, back to that thing that I was talking about.
Naturally I wondered why the direct drive clutches were so jacked up in the first place.
On this note I also found something else interesting.
I rigged up a quick and dirty way to relieve the pressure on the spring plate while I removed the retaining ring.
The Bently states that there are 24 springs that push the applicator piston back on the Vanagon trans.
However, in the assembly from my Audi trans, there are clearly only 16 springs.
Maybe I missed it but did anyone else notice this in their upgrade/rebuild?
I am going to tear the Vanagon DD assembly apart and count coils and measure the wire diameter on the springs to see if they are the same just so I have some comparison.
I now also want to compare all the bores and springs in the valve bodies from both the Vanagon and the Audi to see if maybe I can come up with a reason why there are fewer springs on the Audi unit.
I would like to know for sure that this is indeed the number of springs that this thing should have.
I have no reason to believe this trans has been disassembled in the past but the scratches in the main trust plate or whatever it's called and a 34% reduction in the number of return springs makes me think.
Other than that I did manage to get my forward clutch assembly back together.
Decided to store it in a safe place until I sort all the other bits out.
Going to keep crackin' with the research and rebuild this week in the hopes that I have a complete unit by the end of the week.
Until then... |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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I’d say it was someone’s idea to modify the spring tension against the apply piston. 99% sure it’s not original. I could check my Audi manuals if it’s a bet. I have a complete drum from an early vanagon 010 from an air cooled that had the same gearing as the pre 84 Audi. Would gladly sell it on to you. It has no swarf. You can PM me here. Mark _________________ ☮️ |
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vwhammer Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 998 Location: Boulder CO.
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Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I’d say it was someone’s idea to modify the spring tension against the apply piston. 99% sure it’s not original. I could check my Audi manuals if it’s a bet. I have a complete drum from an early vanagon 010 from an air cooled that had the same gearing as the pre 84 Audi. Would gladly sell it on to you. It has no swarf. You can PM me here. Mark |
Oh man now you've done it.
You said the word and now i'm triggered.
SWAAAAARF!!!!
No. I kid.
I would however, love for someone to confirm that their Later model Audi upgrade parts did indeed have all 24 springs before I put this thing together.
If you have some official documentation that can confirm that it needs 24 springs that would be the pimps nipples.
I have two complete sets of 24 springs from two van transmissions so I am covered there.
On another note this main thick plate is not looking so hot under the microscope. (of course nothing looks good under the scope)
I am going to try to get some pics under the scope and post them up to get peoples opinion.
I am still going to try to sand it on the surface plate to see if I can make it better.
Perhaps I should make a couple of phone calls and see if a new one is available. |
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