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Silicone to seal engine case
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: silicone Reply with quote

Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
tandm1999 wrote:
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not?


I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.

He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.

As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck!



That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.

99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.

I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?

Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.

Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray


I assure you I was shown the proper way to apply silicone, and one of those two engines I helped clean up sure seemed as if it was used sparingly. The other looked like it was caked on. Both engines had it in the gallies, so for me that makes a big difference as I have seen no problems from other sealers and I have not been told of any bearing stand off issues that happened from other type sealers.

My conclusion is simple, we have no known issues from other sealers, the other sealers apply in a better manner, don’t dry in the tube, are easier to fix a mistake when you do accidentally put a little too much, touch something you shouldn’t, and doesn’t seem to end up everywhere no matter how hard you try to be careful.

So for me I will avoid silicone while building any of these engines as I have been instructed and when buying something at a swap meet anything with it showing other than at the cylinder base automatically gets valued at a far lower rate.


If it had silicone in the galleys...then no it obviously was not used sparingly.....unless it came alive and crawled there.

And if you were taught to apply RTV or any sealant .....and a "bead" is the shape or form of measurement.....then no....you wern't taught to appply it properly.

Its amazing how millions of people and virtually all OEMs used RtVs in engine construction for decades on millions of engines.....with no issues.....properly applied.....and yet we still get a handful of people who swear its the devils work ......but dont use much science or technique in its application. Ray
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Paul Jr
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: silicone Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
tandm1999 wrote:
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not?


I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.

He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.

As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck!



That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.

99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.

I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?

Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.

Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray


I assure you I was shown the proper way to apply silicone, and one of those two engines I helped clean up sure seemed as if it was used sparingly. The other looked like it was caked on. Both engines had it in the gallies, so for me that makes a big difference as I have seen no problems from other sealers and I have not been told of any bearing stand off issues that happened from other type sealers.

My conclusion is simple, we have no known issues from other sealers, the other sealers apply in a better manner, don’t dry in the tube, are easier to fix a mistake when you do accidentally put a little too much, touch something you shouldn’t, and doesn’t seem to end up everywhere no matter how hard you try to be careful.

So for me I will avoid silicone while building any of these engines as I have been instructed and when buying something at a swap meet anything with it showing other than at the cylinder base automatically gets valued at a far lower rate.


If it had silicone in the galleys...then no it obviously was not used sparingly.....unless it came alive and crawled there.

And if you were taught to apply RTV or any sealant .....and a "bead" is the shape or form of measurement.....then no....you wern't taught to appply it properly.

Its amazing how millions of people and virtually all OEMs used RtVs in engine construction for decades on millions of engines.....with no issues.....properly applied.....and yet we still get a handful of people who swear its the devils work ......but dont use much science or technique in its application. Ray



There are plenty of things I was told it’s good for but the VW engine is the one thing I was told to keep it away from. Your assumption on how I was shown to use it is nothing but a wild guess with no foundation.

The words “seemed to be used sparingly” do not translate to “it was used properly” as it clearly wasn’t. It was in fact just an example of how easy it is to over apply but yet we don’t have anyone telling us how easy it is to over apply the other sealers commonly used. We also don’t have anyone telling us how it has held the bearings off when somone made a mistake.

So please go ahead and use it all you want but you won’t get my business, my money or me to agree with you.

By the way I just used the clear silicone that has a Kawasaki name on it to seal a valve cover on an engine. I took the time to look completely threw the book and noticed that in no place would it be used when a bearing surface would be involved.

Have a nice day!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: silicone Reply with quote

Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
tandm1999 wrote:
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not?


I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.

He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.

As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck!



That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.

99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.

I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?

Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.

Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray


I assure you I was shown the proper way to apply silicone, and one of those two engines I helped clean up sure seemed as if it was used sparingly. The other looked like it was caked on. Both engines had it in the gallies, so for me that makes a big difference as I have seen no problems from other sealers and I have not been told of any bearing stand off issues that happened from other type sealers.

My conclusion is simple, we have no known issues from other sealers, the other sealers apply in a better manner, don’t dry in the tube, are easier to fix a mistake when you do accidentally put a little too much, touch something you shouldn’t, and doesn’t seem to end up everywhere no matter how hard you try to be careful.

So for me I will avoid silicone while building any of these engines as I have been instructed and when buying something at a swap meet anything with it showing other than at the cylinder base automatically gets valued at a far lower rate.


If it had silicone in the galleys...then no it obviously was not used sparingly.....unless it came alive and crawled there.

And if you were taught to apply RTV or any sealant .....and a "bead" is the shape or form of measurement.....then no....you wern't taught to appply it properly.

Its amazing how millions of people and virtually all OEMs used RtVs in engine construction for decades on millions of engines.....with no issues.....properly applied.....and yet we still get a handful of people who swear its the devils work ......but dont use much science or technique in its application. Ray



There are plenty of things I was told it’s good for but the VW engine is the one thing I was told to keep it away from. Your assumption on how I was shown to use it is nothing but a wild guess with no foundation.

The words “seemed to be used sparingly” do not translate to “it was used properly” as it clearly wasn’t. It was in fact just an example of how easy it is to over apply but yet we don’t have anyone telling us how easy it is to over apply the other sealers commonly used. We also don’t have anyone telling us how it has held the bearings off when somone made a mistake.

So please go ahead and use it all you want but you won’t get my business, my money or me to agree with you.

By the way I just used the clear silicone that has a Kawasaki name on it to seal a valve cover on an engine. I took the time to look completely threw the book and noticed that in no place would it be used when a bearing surface would be involved.

Have a nice day!



Uh....why would i want your business or money? I dont care if you agree with me.

The fact is that millions of people have used and still use high performance RTV's.....to build not only VW engines...but many other type of engines.

And with 100% of all products....you can over apply...or apply sloppily.....and there is not going to be data in the manuals to tell you how to use it FOR YOUR APPLICATION.

We aren't all here to change your mind....but lots of people are reading this and ....the question you were answering was asking why some people love it and some people hate it.

And thats what I was answering. All of the "adhesive sealers"....have low solids content. High tack....but low/thin film strength. RTV's are 100% solids or pretty close...high tack and film strength....but because they are nearly 100% solids...they have to be used CAREFULLY.

As you noted yourself...you are new to this. I'm not and I still learn something new virtually every day in these forums.
Ray
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Paul Jr
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: silicone Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Paul Jr wrote:
tandm1999 wrote:
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not?


I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.

He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.

As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck!



That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.

99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.

I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?

Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.

Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray


I assure you I was shown the proper way to apply silicone, and one of those two engines I helped clean up sure seemed as if it was used sparingly. The other looked like it was caked on. Both engines had it in the gallies, so for me that makes a big difference as I have seen no problems from other sealers and I have not been told of any bearing stand off issues that happened from other type sealers.

My conclusion is simple, we have no known issues from other sealers, the other sealers apply in a better manner, don’t dry in the tube, are easier to fix a mistake when you do accidentally put a little too much, touch something you shouldn’t, and doesn’t seem to end up everywhere no matter how hard you try to be careful.

So for me I will avoid silicone while building any of these engines as I have been instructed and when buying something at a swap meet anything with it showing other than at the cylinder base automatically gets valued at a far lower rate.


If it had silicone in the galleys...then no it obviously was not used sparingly.....unless it came alive and crawled there.

And if you were taught to apply RTV or any sealant .....and a "bead" is the shape or form of measurement.....then no....you wern't taught to appply it properly.

Its amazing how millions of people and virtually all OEMs used RtVs in engine construction for decades on millions of engines.....with no issues.....properly applied.....and yet we still get a handful of people who swear its the devils work ......but dont use much science or technique in its application. Ray



There are plenty of things I was told it’s good for but the VW engine is the one thing I was told to keep it away from. Your assumption on how I was shown to use it is nothing but a wild guess with no foundation.

The words “seemed to be used sparingly” do not translate to “it was used properly” as it clearly wasn’t. It was in fact just an example of how easy it is to over apply but yet we don’t have anyone telling us how easy it is to over apply the other sealers commonly used. We also don’t have anyone telling us how it has held the bearings off when somone made a mistake.

So please go ahead and use it all you want but you won’t get my business, my money or me to agree with you.

By the way I just used the clear silicone that has a Kawasaki name on it to seal a valve cover on an engine. I took the time to look completely threw the book and noticed that in no place would it be used when a bearing surface would be involved.

Have a nice day!



Uh....why would i want your business or money? I dont care if you agree with me.

The fact is that millions of people have used and still use high performance RTV's.....to build not only VW engines...but many other type of engines.

And with 100% of all products....you can over apply...or apply sloppily.....and there is not going to be data in the manuals to tell you how to use it FOR YOUR APPLICATION.

We aren't all here to change your mind....but lots of people are reading this and ....the question you were answering was asking why some people love it and some people hate it.

And thats what I was answering. All of the "adhesive sealers"....have low solids content. High tack....but low/thin film strength. RTV's are 100% solids or pretty close...high tack and film strength....but because they are nearly 100% solids...they have to be used CAREFULLY.

As you noted yourself...you are new to this. I'm not and I still learn something new virtually every day in these forums.
Ray


Then why did you even bother to quote the boy? You then went on to insinuate he wasn’t shown the proper way to do something with as he said no foundation!

What did you expect from him!

I am the unckle he speaks of and have used more syllycone than you know without incident, I also won’t use it in an air cooled VW and told him not to as well.

You got a problem with the fact that it’s harder to use correctly and simply too easy to make a mistake with or the fact that it does hold the bearings out if you do make a mistake and in most cases let’s the oil leak down the line due to inconsistent batches and the slow breakdown process which most are aware of.


One last question, how many air cooled VW’s have you built with it and how many without it?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case Reply with quote

Who seals bearings with anything? They don't need to be sealed!

Dad and I used Permatex aviation form-a-gasket rebuilding VW engines for many years back in the dark ages. That stuff works well but it is totally crap if you ever have to take that engine apart for any reason in the future! Yes it hardens up and there is virtually nothing that will dissolve that stuff to clean it up. You end up doing a lot of damage to the case halves trying to scrape them clean.

Then they invented high temp RTV! I have never looked back!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case Reply with quote

I agree with Ray. If silicone sealer is applied correctly, very thin, it works great. I did an experiment with 6 different sealers ranging from Curil T and K2 to Permatex Red RTV. I made some aluminum torque plates about the width of a VW engine case mating surface. I measured the plates torqued to 18 lbs/ft with M8 bolts, washers and nuts just like a VW case, without the sealer. I then applied the various sealers, let them air dry for 15 minutes, the approximate time it would take to mate the case halves, then torqued the plates together. EVERY sealer compressed to the same thickness, .005mm or .00002".

Porsche actually used the Permatex Red RTV back in the mid 80's for sealing the 962 racing engines. I saw it with my own eyes and that is how I found out about the RTV Red. Previously I just used the Aviation Permatex.

My favorite for the past 12 years has been the old formula Dirko Gray. It took at least 30 minutes to start skinning over which allowed plenty of assembly time. Unfortunately the old formula is no longer available and the replacement Dirko Gray is like any other RTV silicone, it starts skinning over in less than 10 minutes.

SRP1, I'm curious about the Motoseal. How long does it take to start skinning over?

Vic
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case Reply with quote

I use Motoseal all the time.

To control the amount of sealer I use a very large syringe, the kind you get at a grocery store for turkey injection, and this allows a pencil lead sized bead to be placed EXACTLY where you want it. The syringe works great! I apply the Motoseal under all bottom case perimeter washers, main studs and the bottom head studs in the head.

What I love about Motoseal is I don't have to go looking for it when I need it, unlike other sealers, as Oreily's carries it in stock in every store.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case Reply with quote

So the mean girls can’t agree on this lol, surprised Very Happy not, meanwhile back at the ranch we use aviation permatex which has been around since Barney Oldfield and board track racing, google that. Available anywhere and has been improved over its 100 years on the market. Permatex washes off easily using lacquer thinner or acetone. Silicone doesn’t get used for case sealant here but I Have used it to seal cylinders to case especially 94s which need all the help they can get. Those of you using more expensive boutique sealants by all means should continue because the placebo effect is real and it works.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
So the mean girls can’t agree on this lol, surprised Very Happy not, meanwhile back at the ranch we use aviation permatex which has been around since Barney Oldfield and board track racing, google that. Available anywhere and has been improved over its 100 years on the market. Permatex washes off easily using lacquer thinner or acetone. Silicone doesn’t get used for case sealant here but I Have used it to seal cylinders to case especially 94s which need all the help they can get. Those of you using more expensive boutique sealants by all means should continue because the placebo effect is real and it works.


They all work well....and all have their own minor application technique differences. Thats my entire point.

At this point in time .....unless you are starting with a brand new case or get lucky and have an absolutely perfect old case....you are always starting with something less than perfect.

Silicones are ideal for this application. The point I always try to make among the black and white minded is that when using it between two machined surfaces....unlike using it for a valve cover gasket on say.....an inline 6......its usage is NOT....as a "form-a-gasket". You need only a fine smear to fill the imperfections and a layer that is so thin that is does not form a hydraulic lock when squeezed between the two machined surfaces.

If you do that then the actual thickness it squeezes out to will be too thick....and you also get material squeezing out to places you do not want it to be.

The other advantage of RTVs is that between areas with small amounts of torsional or lateral....like the flexing of the case....RTV when applied in thin films ....most very good, readily available RTVs like Permatex Ultra have between 200% and 300% (of their film thickness) of elongation ability. It means they can flex without tearing fissures in the film. They can stay leak free longer if applied correctly.

The solvent based aviation sealants are excellent in the respect that they evaporate and typically shrink slightly. The "shellacs" like indian head are the same way. This keeps the final film thickness very thin. Yes....easier to apply in a thin film.

But they also had less leak free elongation available....not because they cannot stretch....but because they are much lower solids content. This means that not every single spot in the adhesive layer is as dense as every other. They can....on less than perfect surfaces...leak faster in high vibration areas.

They all work well. Use what you like best and know how to apply the most reliably. They are all tools in the tool box. What I hate though....are the blanket statements that one system sucks and the other doesn't. Considering the leak free success millions have had with both systems......if YOU can't make one system work.....its likely your usage technique. Ray
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