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1300cc motor timing question
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txasylum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Running a 1300cc motor in my Super. I bought this car last month and the 70 year guy told me he was running at 10 degrees BTDC. Really didn't think much about it, but later I decided to go back to 7.5 degrees. I have hesitation at 7.5, so I tuned back to around 10 degrees to eliminate the hesitation. Carb is 30 pict 2. Looks like he swapped out points for electronic ignition.

Any suggestions on this one?

As usual, thanks for the your advice. Nothing better than a community with same interest and experts that know more than me.
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Relyt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

What distributor are you running? The distributor is what determines what your timing should be.

There should be numbers/letters stamped on the distributor body. Or at least snap a picture of it in your engine bay.
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txasylum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

The numbers were hard to see because it curve around back, but I saw 113 905. However, I did take a picture for you to view.



Relyt wrote:
What distributor are you running? The distributor is what
determines what your timing should be.

There should be numbers/letters stamped on the distributor body. Or at least snap a picture of it in your engine bay.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by txasylum on Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Relyt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

That looks like a SVDA to me, typically they are timed at 7.5 BTDC.

However I have no way of knowing if that’s an original Bosch unit, and the SVDA clones sold can be hit or miss. If you can, find out what the max advance is with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged. It should be around 28-32 degrees.

You can use this degree wheel to make marks on your pulley:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

You’re running a 30 pict 2 carb. The distributor and carb are probably not a good match, I’d be interested to see your max advance with and without the vacuum line hooked up to see if your getting the proper vacuum.

That may be why it runs better slightly advanced, because your basically running a 009 mech only.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

I am going to check it tomorrow. I don't have anything to measure RPMs, so it's going to be a swag on RPMs.

I also have another 1300 motor sitting around with a 30 pic 1 carb, but that one has a 009 distributor.

Will let all know what I it shows tomorrow. I know it advances, but I don't know to what degree.


Relyt wrote:
You’re running a 30 pict 2 carb. The distributor and carb are probably not a good match, I’d be interested to see your max advance with and without the vacuum line hooked up to see if your getting the proper vacuum.

That may be why it runs better slightly advanced, because your basically running a 009 mech only.
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txasylum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Thanks, I will try to determine what the degree is at high RPMs, since I don't have anything to measure RPMs. Will let you know tomorrow.


Relyt wrote:
That looks like a SVDA to me, typically they are timed at 7.5 BTDC.

However I have no way of knowing if that’s an original Bosch unit, and the SVDA clones sold can be hit or miss. If you can, find out what the max advance is with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged. It should be around 28-32 degrees.

You can use this degree wheel to make marks on your pulley:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

txasylum wrote:
I am going to check it tomorrow. I don't have anything to measure RPMs, so it's going to be a swag on RPMs.

Your distributor (did you find all the numbers?) likely has two advance systems... mechanical advance which varies based on engine rpms... and vacuum advance which varies based on vacuum from the carb. Vacuum is not easily predictable and there are few specs you can work from.

The one you can use is knowing the amount of vacuum that will advance your vacuum advance canister fully. For pre-34Pict carbs and their distributors this was very low (around 4in-Hg) while later 34Pict carbs and their SVDA distributors reached around 14in-Hg. Check both your carb and your distributor. If you can get your hands on a vacuum hand pump w/ gauge you can measure the vacuum created by the left side vacuum port on your carb. If you never see it go above 5in-Hg you know it is meant for the older SVA distributors (with vacuum-only advance). If the vacuum can get up to 14in-Hg then it will work with the later SVDA/DVDA distributors with vacuum and mechanical advance.
Also check the distributor. At idle, check your idle timing with a strobe timing light. Connect the hand pump to your distributor and create vacuum while you watch the timing mark under the strobe. You want to see 8-12deg of timing advance as you increase the vacuum to 14in-Hg. If you see the distributor smoothly advance the timing as you increase the vacuum, you have an SVDA distributor meant to work with the later 34Pict carbs. If your distributor advances to around 20deg with only 4in-Hg you have one of the earlier distributors.

So comparing the vacuum signal created by your carb with the level of vacuum needed to fully advance your distributor you can tell if your carb will produce enough vacuum to work your distributor. Other than looking up the specs for your distributor model, checking the vacuum level at the carb and the distributor are the only sure way to know if they willl work well together.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Yes, without having the having a vacuum, hopefully these identifications will answer the problem.

Carb: Solex 30 Pict 2
Dist: 113-905-205AN. (0231167070)

THanks
Bob





ashman40 wrote:
txasylum wrote:
I am going to check it tomorrow. I don't have anything to measure RPMs, so it's going to be a swag on RPMs.

Your distributor (did you find all the numbers?) likely has two advance systems... mechanical advance which varies based on engine rpms... and vacuum advance which varies based on vacuum from the carb. Vacuum is not easily predictable and there are few specs you can work from.

The one you can use is knowing the amount of vacuum that will advance your vacuum advance canister fully. For pre-34Pict carbs and their distributors this was very low (around 4in-Hg) while later 34Pict carbs and their SVDA distributors reached around 14in-Hg. Check both your carb and your distributor. If you can get your hands on a vacuum hand pump w/ gauge you can measure the vacuum created by the left side vacuum port on your carb. If you never see it go above 5in-Hg you know it is meant for the older SVA distributors (with vacuum-only advance). If the vacuum can get up to 14in-Hg then it will work with the later SVDA/DVDA distributors with vacuum and mechanical advance.
Also check the distributor. At idle, check your idle timing with a strobe timing light. Connect the hand pump to your distributor and create vacuum while you watch the timing mark under the strobe. You want to see 8-12deg of timing advance as you increase the vacuum to 14in-Hg. If you see the distributor smoothly advance the timing as you increase the vacuum, you have an SVDA distributor meant to work with the later 34Pict carbs. If your distributor advances to around 20deg with only 4in-Hg you have one of the earlier distributors.

So comparing the vacuum signal created by your carb with the level of vacuum needed to fully advance your distributor you can tell if your carb will produce enough vacuum to work your distributor. Other than looking up the specs for your distributor model, checking the vacuum level at the carb and the distributor are the only sure way to know if they willl work well together.
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txasylum
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Yes, without having the having a vacuum, hopefully these identifications will provide information needed.

Carb: Solex 30 Pict 2
Dist: 113-905-205AN. (0231167070)

IF these are mismatched, what is the best match. I do have another 1300 with a 009 dist and 30 pict 1 carb on it.

THanks
Bob





ashman40 wrote:
txasylum wrote:
I am going to check it tomorrow. I don't have anything to measure RPMs, so it's going to be a swag on RPMs.

Your distributor (did you find all the numbers?) likely has two advance systems... mechanical advance which varies based on engine rpms... and vacuum advance which varies based on vacuum from the carb. Vacuum is not easily predictable and there are few specs you can work from.

The one you can use is knowing the amount of vacuum that will advance your vacuum advance canister fully. For pre-34Pict carbs and their distributors this was very low (around 4in-Hg) while later 34Pict carbs and their SVDA distributors reached around 14in-Hg. Check both your carb and your distributor. If you can get your hands on a vacuum hand pump w/ gauge you can measure the vacuum created by the left side vacuum port on your carb. If you never see it go above 5in-Hg you know it is meant for the older SVA distributors (with vacuum-only advance). If the vacuum can get up to 14in-Hg then it will work with the later SVDA/DVDA distributors with vacuum and mechanical advance.
Also check the distributor. At idle, check your idle timing with a strobe timing light. Connect the hand pump to your distributor and create vacuum while you watch the timing mark under the strobe. You want to see 8-12deg of timing advance as you increase the vacuum to 14in-Hg. If you see the distributor smoothly advance the timing as you increase the vacuum, you have an SVDA distributor meant to work with the later 34Pict carbs. If your distributor advances to around 20deg with only 4in-Hg you have one of the earlier distributors.

So comparing the vacuum signal created by your carb with the level of vacuum needed to fully advance your distributor you can tell if your carb will produce enough vacuum to work your distributor. Other than looking up the specs for your distributor model, checking the vacuum level at the carb and the distributor are the only sure way to know if they willl work well together.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Glutamodo did a great job cataloging the different Solex carbs and their matching distributors in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095
Here is the table for the 30Pict carbs:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The things to note are the carb type in column2, the base flange# in column3 and the distributor model in column4. The best combo is where all three match.
Another good resource is the distributor specs collected by the Old Volks Home site. Unfortunately they have gone under, but the details are being hosted form the type2.com site:
http://www.type2.com/~keen/ignition.html#A1970A
Beetle 1970 * 1600 Auto-Stick Trans

Distributor: VW 113-905-205AD or AE, Bosch 0231 167 029
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AA, Bosch 0231 115 078
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: 1237 110 064
Condensor: 02 039
Rotor: 04 033
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 138
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 0deg TDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe w/vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 13-16deg @ 2200rpm, 25-28deg @ 3900rpm


You can see from both tables show that your 205AD distributor came on a ‘70 Autostick Beetle and was matched to a 30Pict-3 carb. But also that it is interchangeable with the 205AA distributor used on the earlier 30Pict-2 carb in ‘68-‘69. But you have to have the correct base flange carb for ‘68-‘69 30Pit-2. These would be “VW 167-2” and “VW 167-3”. This specific model of 30Pict-2 was designed to work with the 205AA and 205AD distributor.
The base flange number is stamped into the base of the carb. It looks like one of these (another pic from glutamodo):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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txasylum
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Thanks for the very detailed information. I'm trying to get this running well, but my ultimate goal is to eventually find a 1500 or 1600 motor to put back in this car. I'm on the hunt for one.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Ashman gave you info for the 113-905-205AD, but your post above states you have this distributor:

————————————
Beetle 1972-1973 * 1600 Manual Trans

Distributor: VW 113-905-205AN, Bosch 0231 167 070 > 043-905-205C, 0231 176 028
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AJ, Bosch 0231 167 049
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: 1237 110 161
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 102
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 5-8deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
————————————

Which looks like it started its life as a Dual Vacuum Dual Advance, which was an emissions distributor that had a retard vacuum line as well as advance.
It looks like a SVDA vacuum can was used to replace the old DVDA can, which is common and a good idea when the old DVDA can goes out.

All that to say, you basically have a SVDA that is meant for a 34 pict 3, so the vacuum advance is probably not functioning as it should so it’s relying on the mechanical advance. Which is why it does better at 10*, because your total max advance is more important than your idle advance.

My suggestion would be to run it as is, time it to 28-32 max advance with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged. Then in the future either source a distributor to match your 30 pict 2 or get a carb to match the distributor (34 pict 3 for dual port, h30/31 using the back lower vacuum port for single port)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Relyt wrote:
Ashman gave you info for the 113-905-205AD, but your post above states you have this distributor:

————————————
Beetle 1972-1973 * 1600 Manual Trans

Distributor: VW 113-905-205AN, Bosch 0231 167 070

Doh! Good catch Relyt. That's what I get for answering posts before I've had any coffee.

I think we are back to the best option here is to measure how much vacuum is needed to get to full advance from the vacuum can of the distributor and measuring if the carb can produce that much vacuum. The carb and distributor were clearly not meant to work together from the factory, and it appears the distributor may have been modified.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice and information. I will time it at max and let it go from there.

I am on the hunt for a 1500 or 1600 SP motor so hopefully I will find one soon and swap out the 1300.

If anyone knows where I can find one reasonable or needing rebuilt that is not far from me (Slippery Rock, PA), I'd appreciate the contact.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

the factory correct distributor for a 30 PICT 2 Solex is:

VW# 113 905 205 T = Bosch# 0 231 137 035 which is a vacuum advance only distributor.

It requires 80 mm/Hg to deliver 32 degrees of advance while most SVDA vacuum canisters require @ 200 mm/Hg to deliver @ 8-12 degrees of advance.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

So if I want to get a good match, either find a 205T dizzy or a H30/31 carb?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

So, I marked off around 30 degrees on pulley. I disconnected vacuum hose from carburetor and plugged and plugged the hole on carb. Started the car. Watch timing on pulley as I increased the RPM to high RPM (suspect 3000rpm or more). No change on the timing on the pulley. I then plugged the vacuum in and did the same thing and it did advance probably around 15 degrees (midway between 0 and 30 degrees).

So, guess that means it is not working as it should, or mismatched, correct?

Is there anything I should do or can do with my spare 009 dizzy or 30pict1 carb? Or should I just find a 205T or different carb (which carb?)?





Relyt wrote:
That looks like a SVDA to me, typically they are timed at 7.5 BTDC.

However I have no way of knowing if that’s an original Bosch unit, and the SVDA clones sold can be hit or miss. If you can, find out what the max advance is with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged. It should be around 28-32 degrees.

You can use this degree wheel to make marks on your pulley:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

Correct, your distributor is not doing it's job, but it's not due solely to a mismatch. It sounds like you mechanical advance is not working. The advance weight are likely gummed up with dried grease and dirt. Sounds like your vacuum advance is working as it's delivering though probably not at the right rpm due to the mismatch.

If you are having to hunt for a carburetor I would find a restored German 30 PICT series Solex. An alternative to the 113 T would be a 113 M distributor. They use the same vacuum advance canister. The 113 M uses the older style cap and rotor.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1300cc motor timing question Reply with quote

That is curious. Assuming you got the correct numbers off the distributor (which I believe you did because it matches both VW and Bosch’s numbers) the centrifugal advance is not working.

If you take off the cap, can you twist the rotor and does it “spring” back upon release?

You are currently looking for a new engine so it’s hard to give a recommendation. But if you want to retain a 30 pict series carb and single port engine, my advice would be to source a 205T, there’s several really good rebuilders here. If you want a dual port engine I would suggest a 34pict 3 with a 034/205zb distributor.

For the time being, see which distributor you can get to work the best for you, and run that until you get a more definitive plan.

Edit: Tasb, who posted above me, is one such distributor rebuilder. He’s been doing this for years is one of the most knowledgeable here on distributors.
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