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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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Hi all.
For a "used" VW ABA inline 4 engine with "machined" head purchased from a VW shop. The tech that worked on it had passed away, the engine may've sat for a while before being listed for sale.
AFAIK, the engine was not re-installed (run) after engine work was done. For obvious reasons, the shop could not or would not, provide much info on this engine. The price was right. 
The small amount of oil drained from the oil pan and oil cooler appears to have fine metal particles in it.
At minimum, do the metal particles in oil indicate that it would be best to dismantle the engine, inspect, measure, determine if a rebuild or refresh is warranted?
Since there was contaminated oil in the pan and oil cooler, I'd assume that the oil I drained out was likely leftover oil after shop had drained most of it. i.e. even an amateur like me would not put in used oil to keep it lubed while in storage. 
If this was a used engine that hadn't had work done on it I would't hesitate to dismantle it. But given the circumstances, and even though it had a $1600 price tag indicating work was completed, details that indicate I should tear it down?
- the engine was missing parts (but then the shop likely harvested them)
- there's a bolt in place of the OE stud at the timing belt tensioner (not saying thats wrong)
- oil pan has a few small dents; was the used engine treated poorly, not maintained?
- oil pan seal was not new; engine likely not rebuilt
- cross hatch marks might still be visible in the cylinders but I'm not sure.
- contaminated oil
engine oil images
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17122
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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Neil, it is normal to find shiny dust in the oil on a rebuilt engine after break in. Even the factory knew the first oil and filter change was required at 1000 miles on a new car.
I’d do an oil and filter change and run it another 1000 miles. I might verify the oil pressure before. Hope that helps. Mark
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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that is WAY too much shit in the oil, and big chunks too.
what is it? looks gold? could be valve guides. either way...I wouldn't feel comfortable running it. if anything, break in oil may have a fine sheen like pearlescent paint. that has boulders in it.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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I wondered if it was break in material but then I don't recall seeing that in oil changes I did on the ABA I rebuilt. (still running by some small miracle. )
I'll run a magnet through the oil, maybe cut the oil filter open.
The oil pan gasket looked quite old so head aside, engine may not be a rebuilt. On repair tag engine is shown as "used". I didn't see a lot of oil leak indicators at engine. e.g. at flywheel seal end theres not sign of oil leaks.
But ya, maybe at minimum I should refresh the engine. e.g. rod bearings. I thought maybe the rod bolts could be re used but book says no so i'd be into this for more money for piece of mind.
oil pan
This looks like gasket maker. Saw what looked like same at pan seal.
not sure what can be gleaned from this shot but it was impossible to get a photo of a bore. Oil pickup screen looks clean.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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another thought too is if it seems to aluminum it could be someone put the cam caps on wrong. usually it will smear the bore and the cam will lock, but you never know.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| Neil, it is normal to find shiny dust in the oil on a rebuilt engine after break in. |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
what is it? looks gold? could be valve guides. |
The repair tag shows head as "machined". It looks "new" so was obviously repaired and replaced.
"dust" could be break in material from valve guides?
(wishful thinking? LOL)
edit: just saw your post skills so who knows but I'll double check cam cap placement.
One of the larger costs in my first and only ABA rebuild I did was pistons. All told, maybe i'll use this engine as a learning tool for honing cylinders then get machine shop to them clean block, install new IM shaft bearings then I'll do rings bearings seals. I'd keep it as a spare in case an ABA in one of my Westies fails. I don't think I'll attempt a more powerful engine build (budget constraints)
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17122
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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Looking at the picture above, that does not appear to be a fresh rebuild. What’s interesting is the oil pump strainer is not packed with swarf. Plus the pieces in the pan look pretty large and on my phone can’t recognize what they might be from.
Rod ends don’t look overheated. There is no reason you can’t reuse engine bearings if they are in ok shape. The rod fasteners are TTY and shouldn’t be reused.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| I don't think that engine was taken apart as it still has a nice layer of engine varnish on everything. I would at least pull the bearing caps to see what the rod and main bearings look like. |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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Thanks everyone. Very helpful.
I'll probably at least take this thing apart and at minimum, inspect, measure maybe find some kind of shade tree way to clean out the oil passages.
I'll check the cam bearing shells today, see if they're installed correctly.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| another thought too is if it seems to aluminum it could be someone put the cam caps on wrong.. |
Edited
So the caps look like they line up.
"2, 3, 4" are in the right spots. And though they don't have numerals, 1 and 5 look like they're in the right position.
The nuts feel like they've been torqued right.
<shrugs>
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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So this engine had "some big trouble" then only the head was rebuilt?
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I don't think that engine was taken apart as it still has a nice layer of engine varnish on everything. I would at least pull the bearing caps to see what the rod and main bearings look like. |
Agreed, with that much metal in the oil, some will pass thru the filter. And if filter is really old, maybe it was bypassing. Could cut it open and see if it looks plugged - which could be obvious or a just a guess (if it was bypassing). But a filter can bypass normally if the engine is revved high with thick oil, and moreso as the filter has increased resistance to flow. Bypass would allow those boulders into the rods/mains.
Prob should look if the rod bearings and mains are scored. Check closest to the oil pump first? You could do some plastiguage on them too.
Sounds like you want to run this engine without getting too deep into it. Can you "wash it" with the pan off?
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
So this engine had "some big trouble" then only the head was rebuilt?
Agreed, with that much metal in the oil, some will pass thru the filter. And if filter is really old, maybe it was bypassing. Could cut it open and see if it looks plugged - which could be obvious or a just a guess (if it was bypassing). But a filter can bypass normally if the engine is revved high with thick oil, and moreso as the filter has increased resistance to flow. Bypass would allow those boulders into the rods/mains.
Prob should look if the rod bearings and mains are scored. Check closest to the oil pump first? You could do some plastiguage on them too.
Sounds like you want to run this engine without getting too deep into it. Can you "wash it" with the pan off? |
Would one specifically check rod bearings nearest the oil pump because oil pumped by pump would hit those bearings before all the others?
I originally thought a customer had overheated the engine, warped the head (thermostat was also replaced. A clue?) then they couldn't pay the bill, car value was low, so shop tried to sell just the engine? Or, based on what the repair tag said, it was simply a used unknown engine with a "machined" head installed. But why? IMO it's not like there's a huge market for a used or refreshed ABA engine. And, it appears to be an OBD2 so the tuner crowd wouldn't buy it. Regardless, how could debris in oil be over looked?
The engine was put up for sale [edit: or posted for sale, again] after the tech that did the work had passed away. The shop owner and a tech I dealt with didn't provide too many details.
But the dents in the oil pan, debris in oil, might indicate that this "used engine" was abused.
I was thinking of cutting open the oil filter.
My intent was to rebuild it as a project, possibly do a higher HP build, but when I started weighing in parts cost, I figured at most I'd do a refresh of new bearings, TTY fasteners, rings, seals. It's duty would be as a spare engine but in reality, if an ABA in one of my vans were to fail, I'd likely be hours from home so the cost of shipping it to me would likely be more than sourcing a used ABA to get me home.
I don't know enough about engine rebuilding to know how well I could clean out all the oil passages here at home. My feeling is that if I did a refresh or rebuild, it would be best to get a machine shop to chemically clean or hot tanked the block to make sure oil passages are cleaned out correctly? (clear out any debris stuck to oil passage ID's)
OTOH, if the rod bearings look ok, I might be tempted to leave things alone and "wash" things out best I can then just install new gaskets as needed.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Would one specifically check rod bearings nearest the oil pump because oil pumped by pump would hit those bearings before all the others? |
If the first bearings are good, there's less reason to disturb the others?
But very basically.....an engine with metal in the pan that's not in a running car is a strange thing to put effort into. If it was already in a running car, you "just drive", and it could be "all bonus". But there's a lot of effort ahead, just to see if there will be any "bonus".
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
But very basically.....an engine with metal in the pan that's not in a running car is a strange thing to put effort into. If it was already in a running car, you "just drive", and it could be "all bonus". But there's a lot of effort ahead, just to see if there will be any "bonus". |
Agreed. I have no idea what the thinking was behind the work done on this engine. That in mind, if I ever needed this, as a spare engine to keep the van moving over a short term, it might be perfectly fine as is.
For me, I'd be into rebuilding it to learn more of those processes. But, maybe it's a little "over kill" to have a spare rebuilt or refreshed engine on the side lines. But, since the ABA in one of my vans is a first time real rebuild effort on my part, it could last for relatively many miles or defecate all over the bed tomorrow.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| There is no reason at all to think that one main bearing or rod bearing is apt to show more damage than any of the other bearings. Check them all, not like it is hard to do at this point in time. One bad bearing whether it is the closest or the furthest from the oil pump means the engine is shot. |
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Sodo
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Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| There is no reason at all to think that one main bearing or rod bearing is apt to show more damage than any of the other bearings. Check them all, not like it is hard to do at this point in time. One bad bearing whether it is the closest or the furthest from the oil pump means the engine is shot. |
If oil pump is delivering trash, the first seems likely to get more trash.
And if it's trashed you can just put the wrench down and walk away.
But the last bearing has the lowest oil pressure .... oops.
Agreed, Being "in there" I'd wanna look at them all too.
Does this engine have "one-time-use" connecting rod bolts?
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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82westyrabbit
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Location: Ma
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Just so I am clear this is a used engine. It is not in one of your vans. Correct?if If you are planning to use it as a one time use engine to get you home if you get stuck, I would not touch it. Oil it up and put it in the corner. I have cut open a lot of oil filters, and it’s not uncommon to find stuff in there. Usually carbon. Then we start looking for parts big enough to have part numbers. But I in all seriousness Continental aircraft engines says if there is up to a table spoon of metal in the filter change the oil and fly it (not with me in it) for five hours and then change the oil and recheck the filter. If you start taking it apart to check things, unless you rebuild it completely, you have a bigger chance of failure than just leaving it alone. John |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
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Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Does this engine have "one-time-use" connecting rod bolts? |
Yes. But AFAIK, the nuts can be reused.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Repaired used engine. Fine metal particles in oil. Dismantle? |
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| 82westyrabbit wrote: |
| Just so I am clear this is a used engine. It is not in one of your vans. Correct? ..... If you start taking it apart to check things, unless you rebuild it completely, you have a bigger chance of failure than just leaving it alone. John |
Yes. This is a used engine but with a machined head. A tech at a VW shop did the work but then he died and engine got listed for sale on craigslist.
No. Engine is not in one of my vans. One plan was to rebuild this ABA, try to make a lower profile intake for it, install it in my 15º ABA van, do a bunch of work while I"m in there. Maybe I'll just leave it as - is for a spare.
You make a good point John. e.g. replacing only the rod bearings likely won't allow me to properly clean out all the contaminated oil albeit likely a relatively small amount. And, if there is an issue in there, it will remain an issue.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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