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bug-box.de
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Location: France
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:45 pm Post subject: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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Does anybody know what was the last VIN number with round taillights?
I found # 802 986 but is this correct?
Did it have a speedo pod with round or sharp edges? With or without factory fuel gauge?
Thanks for your help.
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Walter Jelinek
vintage VW specialist Bus / Type3 / Ghia / Beetle |
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Eric&Barb
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: Re: split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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Have you tried the "Progressive Refinements" here?
http://www.oacdp.org/
While it does not have all the changes over the years, it has most of them.
Unfortunately it is not in an easily translated format.
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EverettB 
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Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| bug-box.de wrote: |
Does anybody know what was the last VIN number with round taillights?
I found # 802 986 but is this correct?
Did it have a speedo pod with round or sharp edges? With or without factory fuel gauge? |
Progressive Refinements says
31 July 1961
VIN # 802 986
Rear Lights
Now: 2 compartment type
This means this was the first VIN # with the lights so 802 985 would be the last one.
I don't see an entry for when a fuel gauge was added but it was for 1962 so maybe at the same time?
I don't know if the speedo pod exact change has ever been mentioned but I believe it would be the later speedo pod at that time.
I think there is some discussion here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=269451
You can often look at the parts book for changes too.
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Tizian
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Joined: February 18, 2015
Posts: 383
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| bug-box.de wrote: |
Does anybody know what was the last VIN number with round taillights?
I found # 802 986 but is this correct?
Did it have a speedo pod with round or sharp edges? With or without factory fuel gauge?
Thanks for your help. |
Walter,
now you are disappointing me!
31.07.61 VIN# 802 986 Fuel Gauge Fitted
31.07.61 VIN# 803 000 Speedometer Corners More Rounded
Conclusion:
Last bus with round taillights (VIN# 802 985) did not have a standard fitted fuel gauge and did have a speedo pod with sharp edges...
Sources:
Stefan Doliwa, VW Transporter
Die Technische Dokumentation
David Eccles, VW Transporter and Microbus,
Specification Guide 1950-1967
Grüße
Olli |
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Lind
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Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Tizian wrote: |
| bug-box.de wrote: |
Does anybody know what was the last VIN number with round taillights?
I found # 802 986 but is this correct?
Did it have a speedo pod with round or sharp edges? With or without factory fuel gauge?
Thanks for your help. |
Walter,
now you are disappointing me!
31.07.61 VIN# 802 986 Fuel Gauge Fitted
31.07.61 VIN# 803 000 Speedometer Corners More Rounded
Conclusion:
Last bus with round taillights (VIN# 802 985) did not have a standard fitted fuel gauge and did have a speedo pod with sharp edges...
Sources:
Stefan Doliwa, VW Transporter
Die Technische Dokumentation
David Eccles, VW Transporter and Microbus,
Specification Guide 1950-1967
Grüße
Olli |
I have seen a '61 bus with the rounded speedo pod. It was a late '61 mouse grey dash bus, certainly before 803 000.
don't always believe what you read in books. PR has multiple easily provable errors in it. Mostly correct, but not totally correct in every place.
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Tizian
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015
Posts: 383
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Tizian wrote: |
| bug-box.de wrote: |
Does anybody know what was the last VIN number with round taillights?
I found # 802 986 but is this correct?
Did it have a speedo pod with round or sharp edges? With or without factory fuel gauge?
Thanks for your help. |
Walter,
now you are disappointing me!
31.07.61 VIN# 802 986 Fuel Gauge Fitted
31.07.61 VIN# 803 000 Speedometer Corners More Rounded
Conclusion:
Last bus with round taillights (VIN# 802 985) did not have a standard fitted fuel gauge and did have a speedo pod with sharp edges...
Sources:
Stefan Doliwa, VW Transporter
Die Technische Dokumentation
David Eccles, VW Transporter and Microbus,
Specification Guide 1950-1967
Grüße
Olli |
I have seen a '61 bus with the rounded speedo pod. It was a late '61 mouse grey dash bus, certainly before 803 000.
don't always believe what you read in books. PR has multiple easily provable errors in it. Mostly correct, but not totally correct in every place. |
Lind,
now I’m a bit confused. As I understand the model change to 62 was around # 804 877. When you refer to a bus as late in that year, is that after the model change? That was my understanding so far, but probably I’m wrong. If not, then the late 61 would be definately be something after 804 877 with the rounded pod. Correct me please... |
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Clara
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Posts: 12399
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Tizian wrote: |
| ... If not, then the late 61 would be definately be something after 804 877 with the rounded pod. Correct me please... |
I would call that a 62, even if made in calendar year 1961.
I might mean April 61 though July 61 if I said late 61, as April 61 started the later colours.
Then again, sometimes 'late '61' means low hinge cargo doors, which started late October 1960.
The 802- xxx VIN change of lights is generally considered start of 62 model year, unless you use calendar year as model year. People in the US generally don't use calendar year for model year post barndoor, but I see it a lot from Europe.
Lind... PR and Parts list often have slightly different numbers for many changes. Thought you knew. It makes it interesting. But the numbers are pretty close.
I take that to mean if the VIN is near the change, you might want to double check.
Eccles book has a lot of errors, I would not trust it as a good source, and would go to a VW period source if in doubt. Eccles book does have nice pictures.
I wonder what source he used for the speedo pod corners.
Lind, are you talking about a particular w/t 62 mg bus? That has belonged for a long time to a certain person? I have found that special models , more complex models, often have components you would think would be a different version from looking at the VIN.
This is more likely with a pre-63 w/t, a westy, a 21 window, something where a customer asked for a number of options, compared to a plain off the shelf kombi or truck which would go through the factory quicker.
Some changes are intermittent for tens of thousands of buses.
Tizian, what is your bus? pics? |
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dmuis
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Joined: September 01, 2004
Posts: 381
Location: Sunny Alberta, Wild Rose Country.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Clara wrote: |
Then again, sometimes 'late '61' means low hinge cargo doors, which started late October 1960 |
Don’t want to upend your statement Clara, because it is well written, but just for future correct reference of major changes in late calendar year 1960:
It was the humpback seat that started 27 October 1960 according to PR.
Low Hinge cargo doors started 29 Dec 60.
I used to have a humpback high hinge mango from Nov 9/1960. So does Stanagon. There have also been a number of examples of high hinge buses in the classifieds over the years from Dec 60, and low hinge Mango buses from January - March 1961.
As more folks add their buses data to the conversation the reality will become clearer.
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Tizian
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Joined: February 18, 2015
Posts: 383
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Clara wrote: |
| Tizian wrote: |
| ... If not, then the late 61 would be definately be something after 804 877 with the rounded pod. Correct me please... |
I would call that a 62, even if made in calendar year 1961.
I might mean April 61 though July 61 if I said late 61, as April 61 started the later colours.
Then again, sometimes 'late '61' means low hinge cargo doors, which started late October 1960.
The 802- xxx VIN change of lights is generally considered start of 62 model year, unless you use calendar year as model year. People in the US generally don't use calendar year for model year post barndoor, but I see it a lot from Europe.
Lind... PR and Parts list often have slightly different numbers for many changes. Thought you knew. It makes it interesting. But the numbers are pretty close.
I take that to mean if the VIN is near the change, you might want to double check.
Eccles book has a lot of errors, I would not trust it as a good source, and would go to a VW period source if in doubt. Eccles book does have nice pictures.
I wonder what source he used for the speedo pod corners.
Lind, are you talking about a particular w/t 62 mg bus? That has belonged for a long time to a certain person? I have found that special models , more complex models, often have components you would think would be a different version from looking at the VIN.
This is more likely with a pre-63 w/t, a westy, a 21 window, something where a customer asked for a number of options, compared to a plain off the shelf kombi or truck which would go through the factory quicker.
Some changes are intermittent for tens of thousands of buses.
Tizian, what is your bus? pics? |
Clara,
got it! Thanks for teaching  !
So early and late refers to the model year. That makes sense. We too (in Germany) tend to refer to the model year rather than calender year. VW used to start the model year after the summer break, which was around the 1st of August when major changes where introduced. But as always there are exceptions where early parts made it into the production lines of the later ones and vice versa. Even between model year changes. I also noticed deviations in parts lists from PR and even the workshop manuals. Those documents are not 100% synchronized and therfore are an orientation around the approx. VIN# only. That’s clear. Sometimes we seem to forget: In those days everything had to be done manually and someone had to write all those things down. I am pretty sure VW was among the preciser manufacturers in this respect.
Eccles does mention lots of sources in his preface of the book. Starting from own researches, clubs to VW archives. I don’t know where he got this number for the pod from. We might want to ask him...
I personally have a „late“ 67 deluxe slider, which I own since 1996. It’s now being restored. It doesn’t fit to this conversation though. The 67 too has some early and late curiosities. The late casted rear view mirror in comparison to the early one is one example. But mine came with the early version, which I am pretty sure had never been replaced after delivery. You might have seen pictures from the bus in other posts like the headliner project I’m doing.
This was before it got restored on a lake in Finland in 2000. It had been converted to a camper in the 1980s. Now it’s going back to nearly stock.
Olli
PS: There is a nice documentation of the beetles’ changes over the years in German from Dr. Hans-Rüdiger Etzold „Der Käfer - eine Dokumentation“ with many pictures. It would be nice to have something similar for our busses. |
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Lind
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Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Clara wrote: |
Lind... PR and Parts list often have slightly different numbers for many changes. Thought you knew. It makes it interesting. But the numbers are pretty close.
I take that to mean if the VIN is near the change, you might want to double check.
Eccles book has a lot of errors, I would not trust it as a good source, and would go to a VW period source if in doubt. Eccles book does have nice pictures.
I wonder what source he used for the speedo pod corners.
Lind, are you talking about a particular w/t 62 mg bus? That has belonged for a long time to a certain person? I have found that special models , more complex models, often have components you would think would be a different version from looking at the VIN.
This is more likely with a pre-63 w/t, a westy, a 21 window, something where a customer asked for a number of options, compared to a plain off the shelf kombi or truck which would go through the factory quicker.
Some changes are intermittent for tens of thousands of buses. |
I am aware of the slight mismatch of VIN numbers and dates in PR with regards to many things. I don't believe that this is a case of that. The dash pod change was just a random mid year small body part change which was noted nowhere ever in VW publications.
PR says that Ghia sunvisors changed directly from the first style to the third style, ommitting that there were '58-'59 opaque plastic visors.
PR lists the adjustable drivers seat for walkthrough buses coming at least a month before it really showed up. The parts list confirms this erroneous information with a totally wrong VIN number for the change. I know of two early '62 model year walkthrough buses which prove both PR and the parts list wrong.
The books are mostly right, but there are errors in the VW books, and there are more errors in other books as well. The rounded dash pod was a random smallish body change which did not warrant a mention in PR because it made no difference to anything as far as parts fitment goes.
Late 1961 model year mouse grey dash bus vin number 797013 rounded dash pod. Obviously original.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=696126
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BarryL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| Lind wrote: |
| The rounded dash pod was a random smallish body change which did not warrant a mention in PR because it made no difference to anything as far as parts fitment goes. |
Was fat lip parcel try at the same moment? |
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Lind
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Location: idaho
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| Lind wrote: |
| The rounded dash pod was a random smallish body change which did not warrant a mention in PR because it made no difference to anything as far as parts fitment goes. |
Was fat lip parcel try at the same moment? |
No, the fat lip parcel tray shows up a couple months earlier.
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David Eccles
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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a lot of the errors in the first edition of the spec guide were corrected in subsequent reprints along with some other updated info subsequently unearthed ..
all I can say re the speedo pod info came directly from my copy of Progressive Refinements I was given in 1998 so the source was not iffy ... which listed a host of general modifications for 31.7.61 such as a fuel gauge from #802 986 but as a sep entry also dated 31.7.61 it listed speedo corners now more rounded from # 803 000 - 14 buses later!
But as we all know, what VW say they did and what they actually did are not always the same!
So the original source was bona fide but no guarantees that VW's own info is 100% accurate! |
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EverettB
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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First, I'm not doubting you.
Do you mean in the "General Modifications" section at the back of Progressive Refinements?
You must have a different version of the book than the one scanned and online.
There are no entries in "General Modifications" or in the "Body" section for the speedometer pod corners
It would be cool to see a photo or see scans of your General Modifications section to see what is different. I would not be surprised if there are several versions of Progressive Refinements over the years.
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Lind
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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I checked my copy of PR, and it does not list it. The A-58 page in my book is from the 11/63 supplement. It is the page right before we would expect to see the change listed. I have two different A-59 pages in my book. The paper is a little different between them, so I can tell which was the supplement and which was the original, although the supplement page is not marked as a supplement, like the previous page is. The difference between the two pages is that the supplement page lists Anthracite being introduced for model 311. My point is that they were sending out updates, not all were marked as such. My book is updated into 1969, which is later than I have seen in any other copy of PR, although I have only seen a few copies.
My previous comments on it being a not-listed change was because I could not find the change in my book, and my experience with it is that they didn't list every inconsequential body change if there was interchangeability between the new and old panel.
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David Eccles
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Split bus taillight changes and VIN numbers (round to oval) |
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| it's years since I looked at it and it's now in loft with loads of archive stuff in boxes ...but I guess I should make time to go back and check to see if what I saw and copied over 20 years ago is what I think it said and copied over! Now it's in my brain it's niggling away ... I also know it existed as English market, German market and US market versions (having seen all three) though no idea if different at all apart from language! |
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