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The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes
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Undis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Body 3.

This was the third and final one stipulated in the contract and supposed to be the all steel construction as Porsche knew right from the beginning that the traditional method of building a car body by having a wooden frame covered in sheet steel would no way be a viable option for mass produced car. This body was still in design stage in June 1935 but was planned to be finished in October. It is not clear if this prediction was met but it may have been already viewed by the RDA in October/November (see my theory in a previous post). The first images of the car appear driving on a road covered in light snow and then a short film was made of it driving up and down a snowy road near the Porsche villa together with the convertible. Another short film was made again of both cars together in Berlin thus suggesting it was finished at least by the start of winter 1935/36.

In his book Barber quotes numerous reports that suggest there was a lot of discussion even disagreements between Porsche, Daimler Benz and Ambi-Budd in regards to the construction of the all steel body starting already on June 1935 when Ambi-Budd offered to help design such. Barber appears to attribute these discussions to the V3/3 which he states was the first all steel body finished sometime mid-1936 meaning it took a year’s worth of effort just to build one steel bodied car. I think this is not true. I think the lengthy discussions were already for the next series – the W30. My thoughts are that body 3 was built entirely by Daimler Benz possibly with no input from Ambi-Budd and finished sometime October 1935. It was placed on an early chassis and shown off to various interested parties. Body 3 underwent a facelift sometime early 1936. The headlights were placed on front fenders, a second window wiper fitted (this modification was also performed on bodies 1 and 2), extra air slots cut into the engine cover, rear fenders extended downwards and connected to each other forming a rudimentary rear apron (similar to the W30). The body was then fitted to a new V3 chassis and the car became the V3/3. Incidentally this was suggested to me by Patrick but at first I found it unbelievable but after testing this theory against various pieces of evidence and logic I feel this is what happened.

Photo comments:
The earliest photos of the V1 (body 3) show it in snow covered landscape. This could only mean it's winter 1935/36. Definitely this is not the car that was built first and shown t the RDA in July. Body 3 featured the temporary plate IIIA-0426.

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In another film footage the V1 and the V2 seen together near the Porsche villa. Note how similar they look.

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Yet another film shows both cars together again. Possibly in Berlin February 1936.

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Then of course the famous photos from the Black Forest during Easter 1936. Note the V1 looking a lighter color compared to the convertible.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Makes perfect sense.

By the way, I think it is no coincidence that Daimler-Benz produced this wonderful body in 1935, look at the wonderful MB 150H sport coupe (really a mid engine car like Porsche 356/1) produced in 1935 in a small number. All later scrapped or rebodied as the famous 150H roadster. Interestingly, the Sport coupe had a full opening hood like the production beetle.
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The 170H, launched as a production model in 1936, has exactly the same flutings in the hood (both fixed and lid) as the body no 3, but it reverted to the part-opening hood lid of the V3/1 and 2. (i.e. the bigger opening extending all the way to the quarter panels)
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This was interaction between DB and Porsches designers, particularly Komenda, who saw fit to use the existing tools and bucks, at least the construction principles that lay behind them, at the DB body shop for a high level of detail in the prototypes, especially for body no 3.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Undis wrote:
Body 3.

This body was still in design stage in June 1945 but was planned to be finished in October.


think you meant 1935 - it's hard enough to follow as it is Laughing

am I correct in thinking this is the only photo of all three together (other than the one where they are under covers)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

finster wrote:
Undis wrote:
Body 3.

This body was still in design stage in June 1945 but was planned to be finished in October.


think you meant 1935 - it's hard enough to follow as it is Laughing

am I correct in thinking this is the only photo of all three together (other than the one where they are under covers)


Yes that was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out. As for all three cars together, you are correct that there are only two known photos that show them all in one shot. I'm hoping more will turn up one day.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:


By the way, I think it is no coincidence that Daimler-Benz produced this wonderful body in 1935, look at the wonderful MB 150H sport coupe (really a mid engine car like Porsche 356/1) produced in 1935 in a small number. All later scrapped or rebodied as the famous 150H roadster. Interestingly, the Sport coupe had a full opening hood like the production beetle.

The 170H, launched as a production model in 1936, has exactly the same flutings in the hood (both fixed and lid) as the body no 3, but it reverted to the part-opening hood lid of the V3/1 and 2. (i.e. the bigger opening extending all the way to the quarter panels)

This was interaction between DB and Porsches designers, particularly Komenda, who saw fit to use the existing tools and bucks, at least the construction principles that lay behind them, at the DB body shop for a high level of detail in the prototypes, especially for body no 3.


That is an excellent point. The links between these MB cars and the early VW prototypes cannot be ignored. It took just 4 months from a sketch to two finished bodies. This is remarkable. I can just imagine a scenario where the MB management pulled a team of body-men off their Sindelfingen production line, gave them some sketches and ordered to have those bodies ready in a couple of months. The guys used all of their knowledge, construction methods, bucks and tools and plenty of parts from their parts bin to get these bodies finished in time. This is exactly the reason the first two bodies were constructed in the traditional method of steel sheet over a wooden frame. It was no time for any revolutionary construction methods. Porsche needed something urgently to show to the RDA, a visual preview of sorts. Body 3, on the other hand was an entirely different matter. This is why I'm convinced that this car was constructed entirely out of steel by MB. It took longer because the whole construction was rethought. The car was also showcased as superior to the two previous . I'll be providing more proof of this later on.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Body 4.

This was the convertible. It was the car that was built outside the contract with the RDA, it was financed entirely by the Porsche company. In November 1935 the first photo of the cabriolet version was taken at the Tubingen Market square giving us a reliable marker in the timeline. For some time now one thing I have found unsettling is the visual similarities between bodies 3 and 4., in fact they look like identical twins except that one is a sedan, the other a convertible. The same form, same dimensions (possibly slightly smaller than bodies 1 and 2), same small lids front and back. My suggestion is that both bodies were built side by side using the same design sketches. This also strongly suggests that both bodies were an all steel construction built by Daimler Benz. Both cars appeared together on various occasions such as a short film made of them driving up and down a snowy road near the Porsche villa. Another short film was made again of both cars together in Berlin and of course the well known photos of both cars at a family picnic in the Black Forest during Easter 1936. It must have been significant to have both cars seen together as I think they represented the next generation in Volkswagen design. Important note is that both cars has a more proper dashboard with glove boxses and an instrument cluster very similar to the next generation W30 cars. The convertible underwent a similar facelift to body 3 and was placed on a new chassis. The unanswered question here is: was this body also placed on a V3 chassis before receiving the W30 chassis 22? Unfortunately there seems to be a frustrating lack of information when it comes to the early years of the convertible. There literally is no mention of it in the official documentation adding weight to the theory that this was a private car of Ferdinand Porsche which was not accountable to the RDA and did not participate in any tests before September 1937 when it joined the W30 cars.

This is the earliest known photo of car V2. It’s taken at the Tübingen market square (about 30 Km from Stuttgart) during November 1935. Ferry Porsche is the driver and his wife Dorothea is in the passenger seat. The V2 initially was assigned the temporary plate IIIA-0427. It may be significant that the same plate was installed on body 1 in the beginning. Could this mean that body 1 had already been retired to the garage by November 1935 awaiting its new chassis?

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A still from a short film showing the convertible driving on snow along a road presumably near the Porsche villa.

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Two stills from a short film taken at the courtyard of the Porsche villa. Note Porsche's Wanderer in the background. The convertible was filmed doing laps around this confined space. Interesting to note that it was common for the convertible being enjoyed by Porsche's family and friends, adding to the evidence this was his private car. The second photo provides as rare view of the rear of this car before it was updated with bumpers. Interesting to note is that the rear fenders were not shaped the same way as the V1 (being separate) but were already extended down meeting in the middle. The fenders of the V1 were later modified the same way.

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Another film still possibly from February 1936 in Berlin.

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Another photo of the V2 and the V1 in the Black Forest, Easter 1936.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

As to why I think that body 3 and 4 were already of all steel construction and seen as an evolution of the previous design, there is an interesting report document dated 19th March, 1936 from the RDA which is a detailed summary of the meeting that took place at the Daimler Benz headquarters in Berlin, Salzufer on 24th February, 1936. On this day, two cars were presented at the showroom, described as an open vehicle and a sedan. It is probable that this meeting and presentation of the two cars has been recorded in a short film showing both cars (bodies 3 and 4) together.

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In our discussions Patrick also pointed out the following; In relation to this Porsche provided a detailed report about the status on the project on the 22nd February 1936, which is quite fascinating.
With reference to the bodywork, Porsche wrote:

Ferdinand Porsche wrote:

"Zwei in Holzgerippe und Stahl hergestellte Aufbauten dienten in erster Linie zur bestimming der aeusseren Form, die dann in Zusammenarbeit mit Sindelfingen als der heute gezeigte Ganzstahlbau durchgefuehrt wurde, der sowohl hinsichtlich Gewicht und Geraeumigkeit, als wohl auch im Aussehen gut gelungen ist.”

Two structures made of wooden framework and steel served primarily to define the external shape, which was then carried out in cooperation with Sindelfingen as the all-steel construction shown today, which has succeeded well both in terms of weight and spaciousness and as well as its appearance.


In the Chris Barber’s book the meeting (and the same document) is discussed on page 51.
Chris Barber interprets this part of the document as follows:

Birth of the Beetle wrote:
"The question of the body hadn't been finally resolved – the two traditional coach-built cars had given the external shape, but the all-steel car, developed in co-operation with Daimler-Benz at Sindelfingen, was light and spacious and its looks were thought to be excellent."


This is not an accurate translation, as it omits the reference to "...als der heute gezeigte Ganzstahlbau durchgefuehrt wurde".

... when the all-metal construction shown today was carried out.

This I think adds to the evidence that bodies 3 and 4 were already an all steel construction and provided a definite way forward and importantly were shown at the meeting in February 1936.

I think the timeline presented here explains very well the links between the original contract for 3 cars to be built and the actual 3 bodies that were built by Daimler Benz in 1935 plus the off-contract convertible body. The notion expressed by Chris Barber that there were 5 cars built in 1935/36 is not correct. I have not seen any evidence that a contract would have been signed or amended for more than 3 cars.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Just recently I dug out my old book “The origin and evolution of the VW Beetle” by Terry Shuler. In the book there is a quote by Ferry Porsche:

Ferry Porsche wrote:

“When the first Volkswagens were in their infancy, I as a young engineer was responsible for the driving tests. Naturally it was a fascinating experience to be involved in the building of the first three hand-finished prototypes in the Porsche Villa in Stuttgart – two sedans and a cabriolet – and to work in close contact with the technical team that surrounded my father”.


Yet again here is a suggestion that there were initially at least 3 cars not 2. The quote by Ferry Porsche is interesting as it makes a reference to two sedans (likely bodies 1 and 3) and Porsche’s convertible (body 4) but leaves out the other sedan (body 2). There could be several explanations for this but one could be that body 2 did not play a significant role at this time adding weight to my suggestion that body 2 was either still at Daimler Benz or standing by at the Porsche garage.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Another notable reference is found on page 61 of Barber’s book:
5th February 1936 Herbert Kaes joined the Porsche company and recorded in his diary:

Herbert Kaes wrote:
“Started work at F. Porsche GmbH… Start driving two Volkswagens one with double piston two stroke, the other with twin cylinder four stroke air cooled engines … building three new Volkswagens one with four cylinder four stroke air cooled engine”.


Kaes is not saying if both were sedans or one was a sedan and the other a convertible? Barber interprets this as sedan and convertible. So why there is a discrepancy between what Ferry Porsche said and what Kaes said? I think that by February 1936 body 1 may had been already retired to the garage (joining body 2?) at the villa to be fitted to the V3 chassis. This means that by this time there were only 2 drivable cars left – a sedan and a convertible – most likely the later body 3 and convertible body 4 (refer to the two cars presented February 1936 in Berlin). Barber comments on this quote as if there were 5 cars at the time probably under the assumption that “building three new Volkswagens“ means having 3 full cars in the garage however this could mean anything. I believe there never were 5 cars but 3 sedans and the convertible making it 4 altogether.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Quote:

in this photo outside the porsche villa is v3 on the left and v1, note that the v3 has vw30 type headlamp treatment
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That is not V1, it has a full width bonnet lid, V1 has the smaller «toilet seat lid» with only one central fixing screw. If we agree that V1 used the all-steel body no3. I think this is V3/2 (body no 1) before the facelift!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

^^ to caption the photo I was using old numbering from the book the photo came from - not the new theory's numbering system, which would be body 3 and body 2
I find it easier just to think of body numbers rather than v1, v2, v3/?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:
Quote:

in this photo outside the porsche villa is v3 on the left and v1, note that the v3 has vw30 type headlamp treatment
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



That is not V1, it has a full width bonnet lid, V1 has the smaller «toilet seat lid» with only one central fixing screw. If we agree that V1 used the all-steel body no3. I think this is V3/2 (body no 1) before the facelift!


A few comments: First of all, I would suggest we be very careful with references to V1 and V2. I have a lot of archive material from the period and the cars were not referred to as such back then. I would suggest we stick to body 1, body 2, etc. We can then also refer to chassis, where we are able to identify them with a degree of reasonableness where they have been assigned with permanent number plates (i.e NOT plates starting with 0). Bodies and chassis were swapped from time to time.

Now, with reference to your post:

Car with plate IIIA-34992 is the second body, we believe.

Car with plate IIIA-34993 is the third body, we believe, this being the all-steel one.

This will all be explained...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

IIIA-0426 wrote:
allsidius wrote:
Quote:

in this photo outside the porsche villa is v3 on the left and v1, note that the v3 has vw30 type headlamp treatment
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



That is not V1, it has a full width bonnet lid, V1 has the smaller «toilet seat lid» with only one central fixing screw. If we agree that V1 used the all-steel body no3. I think this is V3/2 (body no 1) before the facelift!


A few comments: First of all, I would suggest we be very careful with references to V1 and V2. I have a lot of archive material from the period and the cars were not referred to as such back then. I would suggest we stick to body 1, body 2, etc. We can then also refer to chassis, where we are able to identify them with a degree of reasonableness where they have been assigned with permanent number plates (i.e NOT plates starting with 0). Bodies and chassis were swapped from time to time.

Now, with reference to your post:

Car with plate IIIA-34992 is the second body, we believe.

Car with plate IIIA-34993 is the third body, we believe, this being the all-steel one.

This will all be explained...


Agree with you all, How could I miss that the one with the W30 headlights is little bugeyed all steel body 3, facelifted? This must be an important piece of the puzzle, that it was converted before body 2?

(I know all three bodies were bugeyed at the beginning, but body no 3 is definitely the cutest one)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

When discussing the early prototypes it's best to wipe the slate clean and start again.

The codes V1 and V2 have been traditionally assigned by Chris Barber and others to two cars - the first sedan and the convertible. According to this analysis such reasoning no longer fits. Throughout the research I had two possible scenarios in mind:

Scenario 1: These codes may have originally been assigned not to individual cars but to series of cars just like the code V3 for the three test cars of 1936 and the W30 thirty test cars from 1937. The V1 series would be the two wood-steel construction bodies (1 and 2) and the V2 series would be the all steel construction bodies (3 and 4). Upon further deliberations I have dismissed this theory.

Scenario 2: The first two bodies (1 and 2) may have been referred to only as Type 60 with perhaps an internal distinction such as Body A and Body B. As discussed earlier these two bodies were never meant to represent the construction of the new Volkswagen, just to demonstrate the general shape. With the completion of all-steel bodies 3 and 4 the codes V1 for the sedan and V2 for the convertible were created perhaps to distinguish them from the earlier versions or even more likely, from the later V3 series. These two cars were more significant as they were closer to the vision of the true Volkswagen. I feel this scenario is more likely.

It is important to note that the codes V1 and V2 seem to appear only later when referring to the earlier versions. The code V3 was used semi-officially during the testing at the end of 1936. An interesting family tree from the end of the war years is found on page 215 on Barber’s book showing the various Volkswagen models. The first model is recorded as V3. Model “zero” is then added by hand by Ghislaine Kaes as V1 and V2. Incidentally the thirty W30 cars have been completely forgotten! This is fascinating as it makes us think that even in those early years the Porsche team members did not necessarily get all the historical facts right.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Here is a video I edited a couple of years ago with material from various sources. At the time I did my best to identify all the cars visible here. I think it is absolutely fascinating to see all these cars in action instead of just looking at still pictures. The hunt is still on for more material including better quality footage of the 1936 test drives seen in this video.

Looking closely you can see car IIIA-34993 (body 3) driving with the centrally mounted extra headlight and more importantly the only known to me image of the dashboard for this car. Notice the glove-box door being open with a key and interestingly the door opens out horizontally.


Link

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Undis wrote:
....Notice the glove-box door being open with a key and interestingly the door opens out horizontally...


Undis, what you are seeing there on body III is not a glove box but a Kienzle tachograph. The W30 series were also fitted with these, allowing trip information to be plotted for analysis. In the case of the W30 all of these were stored in a great big case. The key allowed the paper disc to be removed/replaced.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

^^ yes and at 3.07 a guy is seen checking a tacho on the other car (body 2?) although on this vehicle it is on the passenger side
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

[quote="
Looking closely you can see car IIIA-34993 (body 3) driving with the centrally mounted extra headlight and more importantly the only known to me image of the dashboard for this car. Notice the glove-box door being open with a key and interestingly the door opens out horizontally.


Link
[/quote]

If it is the "glove box "on the left of the steering wheel I think that the glove box is actualy a Tacho with discs in it to register the trips they drove.

Btw, great thread and info.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Thanks guys for solving that mystery for me. Unfortunately that footage is very grainy. A tachograph makes perfect sense. I was probably not expecting to see it on the driver's side. This is why it's invaluable to have a discussion and be able to solve questions one at at a time.

Still, the film provides us with the only (so far) image if the dashboard. It does look very much like that of the W30 series giving us another point in favor of body 3 being a later, more advanced construction.

Unfortunately we also don't have a clear image of the dashboard of the convertible. The best we have are the photos that were taken in the Porsche villa garden showing us a partial view of the dash. From what I can tell it also looks similar to that of the W30.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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These are from the 1937 W30 testing, but I thought it would be nice to share, since we are discussing Tachographs.

Here you can see the car in question was tested on the Autobahn at full speed. Anyway, back to the topic of the first prototypes!
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