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old_man Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018 Posts: 1381 Location: Newfoundland
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Well, I went back to 10W30 and the temp dropped a good chunk on the same run. I also measured my relief spring and it's a few mm 'tired'. I ordered a new one, actually I ordered 10 because they were on sale. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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old_man wrote: |
I ordered 10 because they were on sale. |
I bet they will be too long/stiff.
I've never seen a aftermarket one be correct. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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old_man Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018 Posts: 1381 Location: Newfoundland
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Glenn wrote: |
I bet they will be too long/stiff.
I've never seen a aftermarket one be correct. |
Well, the quoted the right length in the description so who knows. That's why I ordered 10, hopefully I get some variety. I don't know what else to replace that spring with.
UK site called justkampers. For some reason shipping from the UK works out cheaper for need than from the States.
https://www.justkampers.com/113-115-421-oil-pressure-relief-spring-short-15-3-x-63mm.html |
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grandpa red Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2018 Posts: 520 Location: Hollister,Ca.
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I decided to use Valvoline VR1 30wt. In my new engine.
I ordered 8 qts. From ORielys and went to pick it up yesterday.
The kid brings the box out and I see 3 different containers.
I look and it was 30 wt. For equipment like air compressor s.
The kid tells me it is the same it is just repackaged.
I returned the 3! _________________ '72 Beetle |
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Chuck67 Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2006 Posts: 101 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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grandpa red wrote: |
I decided to use Valvoline VR1 30wt. In my new engine.
I ordered 8 qts. From ORielys and went to pick it up yesterday.
The kid brings the box out and I see 3 different containers.
I look and it was 30 wt. For equipment like air compressor s.
The kid tells me it is the same it is just repackaged.
I returned the 3! |
I use VR1 10w-30 and am very pleased with it. New 1914 first round was 20W-50 and it ran too hot. Switched to 10W -30 and all is good
Only problem is , is that the 10W-30 is VERY hard to find in California. It is because of the Zinc . I have found an RV parts house in Escondido that will sell and ship as will Summit Racing but otherwise very hard to find |
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Motor60 Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2014 Posts: 625 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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how come you can use regular 10w30 in an air cooled generator with a flat tappet cam? says nothing about zddp ratings and generator works forever at high rpm. why is a vw so different? An engine is an engine regardless of size...has anyone ever broken down a vw motor that was using only Mobil1 or diesel oil and seen the negative affects of that oil? ive yet to come across any pics from any of you showing what diesel oil or Mobil1 did to destroy a flat tappet engine. and this thread is LONG....but none of you master mechanics can show any proof that diesel oil kills volkswagens. I know Glenn is also STILL waiting for proof that shows GL-5 gear lube kills our yellow gearboxes but again....no proof. Ill give you guys 3 days to prove, in court, with actual evidence that todays synthetics or diesel oils ruins vw engines. After 3 days, with no proof, I will rule that any oil is good enough or a vw engine. And I will lock this thread FOREVER.....but ill leave it in sticky to remind everyone to back up their information with evidence....its time to clean house....too many NON scientists giving opinions...FACTS people...."Its not what you know....Its what you can prove" Denzel Washington. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Motor60 wrote: |
how come you can use regular 10w30 in an air cooled generator with a flat tappet cam? says nothing about zddp ratings and generator works forever at high rpm. why is a vw so different? An engine is an engine regardless of size...has anyone ever broken down a vw motor that was using only Mobil1 or diesel oil and seen the negative affects of that oil? ive yet to come across any pics from any of you showing what diesel oil or Mobil1 did to destroy a flat tappet engine. and this thread is LONG....but none of you master mechanics can show any proof that diesel oil kills volkswagens. I know Glenn is also STILL waiting for proof that shows GL-5 gear lube kills our yellow gearboxes but again....no proof. Ill give you guys 3 days to prove, in court, with actual evidence that todays synthetics or diesel oils ruins vw engines. After 3 days, with no proof, I will rule that any oil is good enough or a vw engine. And I will lock this thread FOREVER.....but ill leave it in sticky to remind everyone to back up their information with evidence....its time to clean house....too many NON scientists giving opinions...FACTS people...."Its not what you know....Its what you can prove" Denzel Washington. |
When the industry first moved to SM rated oils there was plenty of documentation that cams in many engines, both air cooled and water cooled were experiencing very high levels of wear. I can't say that the problem still exists today as motor oil manufactures have developed other additives to work in conjunction with the reduced ZDDP levels in SM/SN oils.
For Type 4 engines in particular there is plenty of proof that their cams are subject to excessive wear no matter the oil used, so I think it makes sense to be leery of using an oil that may not give as good of protection as other oils on the market.
Quote: |
An engine is an engine regardless of size |
To say that all engines suffer the same problems without regard to design is to admit you know little about engines.
. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26298 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Oh yeah, I remember seeing some dodgy looking Type 4 camshafts back when I worked on VWs in the late 90s.
Here ya go, a Type 1 flat tappet failure.... (actually I don't know if would blame the oil on this one, the cam on this one was pretty wrecked as well, I suspect that it died first and took the lifter out with it... also, this dates back like 20 years ago when the oil reformulation was a lot more recent)
_________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Motor60 wrote: |
how come you can use regular 10w30 in an air cooled generator with a flat tappet cam? says nothing about zddp ratings and generator works forever at high rpm. why is a vw so different? An engine is an engine regardless of size...has anyone ever broken down a vw motor that was using only Mobil1 or diesel oil and seen the negative affects of that oil? ive yet to come across any pics from any of you showing what diesel oil or Mobil1 did to destroy a flat tappet engine. and this thread is LONG....but none of you master mechanics can show any proof that diesel oil kills volkswagens. I know Glenn is also STILL waiting for proof that shows GL-5 gear lube kills our yellow gearboxes but again....no proof. Ill give you guys 3 days to prove, in court, with actual evidence that todays synthetics or diesel oils ruins vw engines. After 3 days, with no proof, I will rule that any oil is good enough or a vw engine. And I will lock this thread FOREVER.....but ill leave it in sticky to remind everyone to back up their information with evidence....its time to clean house....too many NON scientists giving opinions...FACTS people...."Its not what you know....Its what you can prove" Denzel Washington. |
There are too many variables to make a scientific determination for most of us. Stock engine with stock cam and springs will probably run fine, like the generator you are referencing, on just about any oil.
I had an engine failure a about 7 years ago. I was running Mobil 1 5w30 at the time. I cannot unequivocally say it was the oil that caused the failure, because who really knows? Maybe it was run low on oil and I didn't notice, or, for sure there were several years where it sat in the garage and it was never driven. Also, the carbs weren't tuned correctly at the time. It also ran chrome engine tin with no thermostat or flap setup. Any one of, or all of, these issues, could have contributed to the engine failure I experienced. Or, it could have just been a faulty part, the wrist pin retainer dislodged, scoring the side of the piston as it worked its way into the crank case, and the wrist pin scored a 1/8" deep groove in the cylinder.
Since it IS known scientifically that ZDDP DOES reduce wear on flat tappets and cam lobes, I have since switched to VR1 5w30. I haven't had any issues with this rebuild thus far, but is it because of the oil? Is it because I corrected all of the other issues? Is it because I built the engine myself this time, painstakingly assuring that everything was clean and properly assembled? We likely won't know.
The only way to be scientifically sure, as your above suggestion, would be to run two IDENTICALLY BUILT engines, in two IDENTICALLY BUILT cars, and run them through IDENTICAL test runs, one with increased levels of ZDDP, and one without. Most of us do not have the time, money, or patience to take that on.
In the end, it's your engine. If you don't think you need it, don't use it. I am not saying I am right, I just like the added insurance of the increased ZDDP in VR1 oil. This is also likely why this thread is so long. Most people on here (myself included) list some empirical evidence because almost NONE of our experiences have been in a scientific, controlled test environment. I say almost because maybe Alstrup, or modok, or Jake Raby have ACTUALLY tested some of these things, but the rest of us are using myriad engine combinations in myriad vehicles built for myriad purposes, and that is not scientific. _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
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-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
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Motor60 Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2014 Posts: 625 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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@ wildthings....
An engine is an Engine....it is just an air pump....air fuel in....air fuel out
design is there for the purpose of reliability, durability, or power, or all of the above.
The only difference in engines, is their purpose. VW made "industrial engines" but it was still a VW engine without a transmission. An engine is an engine.
Diesel engines were created to run low rpm for big ass boats and towing power trucks. Different purpose engine....an engine is an engine.
All different "designs" with all different issues of their own....but the thread is about OIL and the additives that they have or dont have for our motors.
I just specifically asked for proof.....and the guys who have replied have pics of a worn camshaft; however, they have BOTH indicated they dont know if the oil was to blame.....NO PROOF that current oil kills VW camshafts.
So @wildthings, just by your reply, can I assume you know about oil just as much as I know about engines??? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Motor60 wrote: |
@ wildthings....
An engine is an Engine....it is just an air pump....air fuel in....air fuel out
design is there for the purpose of reliability, durability, or power, or all of the above.
The only difference in engines, is their purpose. VW made "industrial engines" but it was still a VW engine without a transmission. An engine is an engine.
Diesel engines were created to run low rpm for big ass boats and towing power trucks. Different purpose engine....an engine is an engine.
All different "designs" with all different issues of their own....but the thread is about OIL and the additives that they have or dont have for our motors.
I just specifically asked for proof.....and the guys who have replied have pics of a worn camshaft; however, they have BOTH indicated they dont know if the oil was to blame.....NO PROOF that current oil kills VW camshafts.
So @wildthings, just by your reply, can I assume you know about oil just as much as I know about engines??? |
If you want proof then you need to do as suggested, build two identical engines (actually ten or twelve would be better) and run them over identical ground for 200K miles each with two oils that satisfy your criteria and then tear them down to examine the wear.. Please let us know when your testing is complete. Maybe a Go Fund Me can help you with the finances.
I have at least taken courses in lubrication and have bought tens of thousands of gallons of motor oil and other lubricants and had thousands of oil samples taken. I think I know a bit.
Every engine has their special needs, just changing from solid to hydraulic lifters on otherwise identical engines can require a change in the oil if one wants a problem free engine. A 900cid industrial engine putting out 120 hp power is a long way from a 120cid (2.0L) aircooled VW engine pumping 60 hp to push a bus up a grade. That industrial engine may easily go 25,000 hours of use with nothing more than a very occasional oil change and other periodic maintenance it being pretty much abuse proof, while 2.0L VW engine may toast itself on one long steep grade if not maintained well and driven with care. |
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donaldus Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2019 Posts: 4 Location: Carrollton, TX
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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After viewing several rebuilds (1776 and larger), on Jay Leno’s Garage by VW “experts”, I switched to SWEPCO 306 15/40. I have about 3K on my original block mod cam, crank, larger heads, pistons rebuilt engine. Bought my 74 Love Bug new 45 years ago...DFW area has grown too much to compete with 40 HP...the added displacement has helped a ton! |
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Motor60 Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2014 Posts: 625 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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@wildthings
so you're saying that it will take about 200k miles before camshaft will fail? Everyone can I have your attention please.....Raise your hand if you have or plan to have your motor for about 200k miles? So I can add you as my test subjects. If not, then use whatever oil you want because Im sure most of us who like to tinker will probably never have the SAME motor or at least the same parts because we like change. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Motor60 wrote: |
@wildthings
so you're saying that it will take about 200k miles before camshaft will fail? Everyone can I have your attention please.....Raise your hand if you have or plan to have your motor for about 200k miles? So I can add you as my test subjects. If not, then use whatever oil you want because Im sure most of us who like to tinker will probably never have the SAME motor or at least the same parts because we like change. |
Some of us take pride that our engines can actually last for decades rather than months. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Looking at it the wrong way.
With occasional exceptions, all the newer oil formulations, try to be at LEAST as good as the older ones in all respects, and in some respect better.
It's not that the oil is KILLINg anything, it's just, look at it backward.
If we used antique oil and air filters and carburetors on NEW cars, they would wear out WAY faster, maybe as fast as classic VW's did. You know why spark plugs last so long now? it's the oil and gas. It's so CLEAN they don't foul, which 20-30 years ago it was just a matter of time before they would get contaminated. I ran my plugs so long recently the EXTERIOR of the spark plugs go so dirty they misfired, and I cleaned that off and back in action.
If all the brands of oil cost 6$ a quart, or whatever, choose the one that works best for what your doing, there is no downside.
Like, using a fleet oil for breaking in an engine, is ridiculous.
trying to think of an example.
Extended release pepto bismol pills when you've got the runs; all the medicine will come out the other end before it's got a chance to do anything. Not the right formulation for the situation. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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modok wrote: |
Looking at it the wrong way.
With occasional exceptions, all the newer oil formulations, try to be at LEAST as good as the older ones in all respects, and in some respect better.
It's not that the oil is KILLINg anything, it's just, look at it backward.
If we used antique oil and air filters and carburetors on NEW cars, they would wear out WAY faster, maybe as fast as classic VW's did. You know why spark plugs last so long now? it's the oil and gas. It's so CLEAN they don't foul, which 20-30 years ago it was just a matter of time before they would get contaminated. I ran my plugs so long recently the EXTERIOR of the spark plugs go so dirty they misfired, and I cleaned that off and back in action.
If all the brands of oil cost 6$ a quart, or whatever, choose the one that works best for what your doing, there is no downside.
Like, using a fleet oil for breaking in an engine, is ridiculous.
trying to think of an example.
Extended release pepto bismol pills when you've got the runs; all the medicine will come out the other end before it's got a chance to do anything. Not the right formulation for the situation. |
The lead sludge that used to fill engines and cause very early failure is gone, yet many mechanics still think that removing lead has been a negative thing. I remember engines in the sixties that had been run on high octane leaded fuel that were close to 100% full of lead sludge. Pull the rocker covers off and you would find a mass of gooey gray sludge the shape of the covers. The sludge would also clogs the oil galleys which could and did lead to abrupt engine failures. Newer engine designs would just not have worked with the oil and gas available before the mid seventies. |
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Kiwi1966 Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2009 Posts: 168 Location: Ohoka New Zealand
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Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Hi
Anybody got anything to say about the Joe Gibbs HR2 10w30 oil.I believe this is a dino oil
Also another one Brad Penn 10 W 40
Looking to use in my buses 1600 and 1776
and in a newish rebuilt 36hp
Thanks in advance for any thoughts
Ross |
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TimmyH79 Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2013 Posts: 88 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Well to file this in the "FWIW" category for people in warmer climates - I decided to run straight 40W VR-1 and have been so far happy with the results - I live in Houston, basically sea level, high humidity and I drive my bus year round so the temp range is mostly 60-100 with a few possible drives in the 40-60 range per year.
I have about 400 miles on the oil and took a temp reading to make sure okay - after a pretty hard 25 mile drive at 76 deg ambient the oil was right at 200 deg.
Seems pretty good - the engine is original but was said by the PO to have been rebuilt quite some time and ~10k miles ago.
Anyhow, just a data point - My plan from here is to use 40W as my base and in the cooler months top off with 30W
_________________ '66 SO-42
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Motor60 Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2014 Posts: 625 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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@wildthings
I took out my motor and put an old 1600 in my bug....put in ole Mobil 1 10w30 and redlined the heck out of it all day long...It would just not blow up and my idle never changed...not one rattle out of the engine...I know its not the 200k miles that you say will kill a cam, but it sure aint killing my cam
BTW, who unlocked this thread...I locked it several days ago since wildthings could not give us proof that oil kills camshafts |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Motor60 wrote: |
BTW, who unlocked this thread...I locked it several days ago since wildthings could not give us proof that oil kills camshafts |
News to me _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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