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docrav46 Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2019 Posts: 18 Location: India
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:17 am Post subject: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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Have a very strange question.
Why is there a cut between two manifold ?
Picture has been attached
Thank u
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2936 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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Docrav,
Here's my reasoning:
First some background data on intake cam timing and duration. A quick search yielded the following info. I don't know if it is exact, but is directionally sufficient.
intake opens 7.5deg Before TDC and closes 37deg After BDC. It remains open a bit after BDC as the momentum of the AF mixture has built up at the bottom part of the suction stroke and the AF mixture keeps filling up the cylinder even though the piston has started moving upwards.
Now let's look at where the cylinders are in the cycle when Cyl 1 is at TDC at the start of the suction stroke.
Cyl 1 - TDC at start of suction stroke
Cyl 4 - BDC at start of exhaust stroke
Cyl 3 - TDC at start of combustion stroke
Cyl 2 - BDC at end of suction stroke/start of compression stroke
Let's look at just Cyl 1 and 2. When Cyl 1 is near TDC before the suction stroke, the intake is about to open (at 7.5 deg BTDC). At this point Cyl 2 is still completing its suction stroke and the intake valve there is still open for another 44.5 (7.5+37) degrees. The AF mixture momentum is keeping the AF going towards Cyl 2 even as Cyl 2 intake closes further.
Since Cyl 1 intake has started opening, the small channel between 1 and 2 allows the AF flow to start diverting from the #2 manifold into the #1 cylinder and gets the AF flowing into #1 faster.
Similarly #3 benefits from #4.
#2/#4 does not get the same benefit from #1/#3. When #2 is at TDC and intake valve has started opening, #1 was in the exhaust cycle and there was no AF mixture movement in that branch of the manifold that can aid #2. Same for the other pair.
Don't know if this is the correct explanation. Just my reasoning based on me trying to explain why it would be there.
(Sometimes the best way to get the correct answer is to post the wrong one)
Byas _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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docrav46 Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2019 Posts: 18 Location: India
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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bnam wrote: |
Docrav,
Here's my reasoning:
First some background data on intake cam timing and duration. A quick search yielded the following info. I don't know if it is exact, but is directionally sufficient.
intake opens 7.5deg Before TDC and closes 37deg After BDC. It remains open a bit after BDC as the momentum of the AF mixture has built up at the bottom part of the suction stroke and the AF mixture keeps filling up the cylinder even though the piston has started moving upwards.
Now let's look at where the cylinders are in the cycle when Cyl 1 is at TDC at the start of the suction stroke.
Cyl 1 - TDC at start of suction stroke
Cyl 4 - BDC at start of exhaust stroke
Cyl 3 - TDC at start of combustion stroke
Cyl 2 - BDC at end of suction stroke/start of compression stroke
Let's look at just Cyl 1 and 2. When Cyl 1 is near TDC before the suction stroke, the intake is about to open (at 7.5 deg BTDC). At this point Cyl 2 is still completing its suction stroke and the intake valve there is still open for another 44.5 (7.5+37) degrees. The AF mixture momentum is keeping the AF going towards Cyl 2 even as Cyl 2 intake closes further.
Since Cyl 1 intake has started opening, the small channel between 1 and 2 allows the AF flow to start diverting from the #2 manifold into the #1 cylinder and gets the AF flowing into #1 faster.
Similarly #3 benefits from #4.
#2/#4 does not get the same benefit from #1/#3. When #2 is at TDC and intake valve has started opening, #1 was in the exhaust cycle and there was no AF mixture movement in that branch of the manifold that can aid #2. Same for the other pair.
Don't know if this is the correct explanation. Just my reasoning based on me trying to explain why it would be there.
(Sometimes the best way to get the correct answer is to post the wrong one)
Byas |
thank you so much for your response ! Very technical indeed but makes sense really
We shall continue the discussion on the vw group |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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Balancing the intake charge between the two ports. That's my guess. Kind of like running the balancing tube between the two sides on dual carbs. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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viiking Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013 Posts: 2667 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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I agree with VW_Jimbo although I would call it more like a "scavenging" device to remove unusable fuel from the manifold side that is NOT needing the fuel.
My simplistic explanation is that the fuel from the single carburettor is available for both sides of the manifold but will preferentially go into the manifold where the inlet valve is open due to the vacuum. However some must still be able to enter the static manifold which may remain albeit very temporarily in an unburnt "slug". When its intake valve does open, you may get a temporarily rich fuel mixture in that cylinder until it flushes through the new fuel.
The split between the two manifolds allows this residual slug to be removed from the static manifold i.e. a balancing/scavenging tube. _________________ 1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5364 Location: Lefty, CA
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2936 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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viiking wrote: |
My simplistic explanation is that the fuel from the single carburettor is available for both sides of the manifold but will preferentially go into the manifold where the inlet valve is open due to the vacuum. However some must still be able to enter the static manifold which may remain albeit very temporarily in an unburnt "slug". When its intake valve does open, you may get a temporarily rich fuel mixture in that cylinder until it flushes through the new fuel.
The split between the two manifolds allows this residual slug to be removed from the static manifold i.e. a balancing/scavenging tube. |
Are you saying that - say when Cyl 1 is in suction and most of the AF flowing towards it, some of the AF may end up in the Cyl 2 branch, and the opening allows this portion to go back to Cyl 1? And, correspondingly the same effect on the other cylinders?
So it primarily acts as a return passage for any misdirected AF mixture. _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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viiking Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013 Posts: 2667 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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bnam wrote: |
viiking wrote: |
My simplistic explanation is that the fuel from the single carburettor is available for both sides of the manifold but will preferentially go into the manifold where the inlet valve is open due to the vacuum. However some must still be able to enter the static manifold which may remain albeit very temporarily in an unburnt "slug". When its intake valve does open, you may get a temporarily rich fuel mixture in that cylinder until it flushes through the new fuel.
The split between the two manifolds allows this residual slug to be removed from the static manifold i.e. a balancing/scavenging tube. |
Are you saying that - say when Cyl 1 is in suction and most of the AF flowing towards it, some of the AF may end up in the Cyl 2 branch, and the opening allows this portion to go back to Cyl 1? And, correspondingly the same effect on the other cylinders?
So it primarily acts as a return passage for any misdirected AF mixture. |
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. My opinion.
The reasoning that others have given re long intake runs and in an effort to improve the idle are all symptoms of my assertion. If you get a slug of unburnt fuel in one cylinder, when the intake opens and sucks it in, followed by fuel being drawn in by the vacuum could, in my opinion cause "lumpy" idling. _________________ 1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2936 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Cut in between manifold cylinders |
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I get the first part. But not the second part - “slug” causing lumpy idle - for 2 reasons.
First, Even if there is a slug there - the new incoming share for cylinder 2 will face the same effect and only 95pct will come down the cyl 2 branch with the remainder going to cyl 1. So it effectively gets a full charge. Even if the AF slug were present early, ignition only happens much later - post compression. So it should not matter.
Second, the same effect happens on all cylinders so should be an even effect. _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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