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Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle
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Butcher
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Torque is not a great way of measuring clamping pressure. It's the best they had back then.

The valve body just needs to be attached to the bottom of the transmission so it does not fall off and for the oil passages to seal. If you put too much torque on the valve body bolts, then it's possible to distort the valve body. So is 4nm right? Sure. I just tighten them by hand, wrist close to the head of the ratchet. Never had a problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:
I will have to look when I get home to see what my exact number was but I know it was in the 1.25-1.64 range that required two 0.4mm shims.

From the way I am reading this I believe if yours measured 2.5mm then you actually need two 0.4mm shims AND one 1.2mm.

In that list it looks like one .4 and two 1.2 to me.
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Not sure how you are reading it but here is how I read it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


His measurement was 2.5mm not 3.5mm.
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:

Are they measuring to this bushing?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
?


Going back a few pages. Nobody answered this question. Is this where measurements A should be measuring from?
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Yes I believe this is the place.
As Alika pointed out in the other trans thread that has resurfaced recently, you are measuring from where the shims actually sit.

As you can see in this pic, my shims are sitting on that surface.
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Thatís what I thought. Anybody have any extra .4 shims laying around?? Having a hard time finding them anywhere.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:
Not sure how you are reading it but here is how I read it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


His measurement was 2.5mm not 3.5mm.

Yes! For some reason I was remembering the 3.5 from the beginning of the calculation...
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

h00drat wrote:
Thatís what I thought. Anybody have any extra .4 shims laying around?? Having a hard time finding them anywhere.

Hmm dang that's a bummer.
Have you tried German Transaxle?
I have 3 different sets of parts here. Let me see if I have any extra shims.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

GTA has them but wonít sell them. Same with Matt.
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Well I don't have any extras lying around but I do have a solution.

https://www.mcmaster.com/3088a368

You may see from my pic above with the shims in place that the shims are not a tight fitting piece.
The ID of the stock shim is 1.315 inches but the shaft they slide over is only 1.18 inches.

The OD of the stock shim is 1.676 inches bu there is more than enough room for one that is 1.75 inches on the OD.

So, the one I listed about is 1.25 inches ID with a 1.75 inch OD and it .015 inches thick which equates to 0.4mm.

I am fairly confident that they will work.
These are not really a wear item as they simply sit between two moving parts that are rotating at the same speed to keep the two parts a specified distance apart.
I would not hesitate to run them in my trans given that there are not a lot of other options.


Last edited by vwhammer on Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Just a few tips I picked up while working on my trans yesterday.

Make sure you check/replace the metal seals on your pump.
I was going through some of the leftover parts from my rebuild kit when I came across the trans pump metal seals that I meant to replace.

I tore it all down again to get to the pump and these are what I found.
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For those that don't know these are supposed to have a square cross section.
There should be no step.

The lowers were worn much more than the uppers but they are still all junk.
There are two different size rings, by the way.
The lowers have a larger OD.

I am fairly certain that this pump is from the Audi trans that I used for parts.
I think, with this damage and the severe damage I found in the Audi direct drive clutch assembly, it is apparent that this trans was run low on fluid for some extended period of time.

Naturally I looked over every thing else to make sure there were no other issues but noting really jumped out at me.

As a note, other than being pretty shinny on the outside, nothing really seemed out of the ordinary until I removed the rings.

Ok on to the next tip.
Don't snag your Audi trans pan for use in your van no matter how much nicer it is than your beat up old van pan.
I broke out the Audi pan that I scrubbed, bead blasted and painted for use on my van only to realize something was off.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The damn dipstick is on the wrong side.

Oh well.
I wanted to install a drain bung on the pan anyway so I guess now I won't have to wreck my fancy new paint job to do so.

The last thing I noticed was how beat up my original van trans filter cover was.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

No matter, as the one from the Audi trans was in better shape and fit just fine.
Not sure how the van cover got so beat up other than just plain ol' mishandling.

Other than that I struggled for 90 minutes or so trying to get a stud out that did not look as good as I wanted.
A nut still went on fine and I should have just left it alone but I had so many prettier studs that I could not help but want to swap them.

So double nutting on the stud did not work no matter how hard I tightened the two nuts together.
Next I tried a big old pair of vice grips locked as hard as I could possibly get them and they just chewed all the threads off as it spun around the stud.
Now the stud is wrecked and I could not leave it if I wanted.
It has to come out.
Next up was welding a bar on the stud so I could spin it out.
All that did was twist about 1\4 inch off of the end of the stud.

Now I was in trouble.
I had one more chance to weld something on and spin it out.

First I hit it was some PB blaster.
Then I found a big nut and centered it over the stud and welded it in place.

I filled the hole in the nut and even got a couple welds on the back side.
I let it cool for a bit.
At this point if the stud broke off I would be left with little choice but to strip the trans back down to the case and take it to work to machine the stud out.
Naturally did not want to do this.
Before cranking on anything I took my map gas torch and gently heated the case around the stud as hot as I could get it without burning my paint off (maybe bubbled it a little bit).

Finally I slipped my 19mm wrench over the nut and gave'er a tug.
Magically the stud slowly started to turn.

Wheww. dodged a bullet.

The tip here?
The oldest tip in the book, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

The 0.4MM shim is p/n 010323345A which I'm having trouble finding other than an eBay listing out of Latvia. I am finding 010323345C at AutoAtlanta for $2.48 (as of 10/20/2019), and while I'm sure there's some difference between the A and C versions .. this is a shim. If it were a different thickness, it would be a different part number -- the 1.2MM shim is p/n 010323346A -- not just a different letter suffix. So it's probably Just Fine to use the C in place of the A

Try here: http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Transmission-Washer-Parts-PN-G010323345C.html
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

I ordered 2 of the 010323345C part. I'll let you all know what they measure when they get here.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

h00drat wrote:
My pistons from WIT finally arrived, and they confirmed what I suspected. The pistons I got from eBay were either the wrong parts, or just not of the same quality.

The only one that was identical was the Forward clutch piston. The 1st piston and the DD piston were not even close.

Both the 1st piston and DD piston have Audi stamps on them (from WIT).

For the 1st piston, you can see that my eBay one didn't have the ball bearing. I'm planning on using the one from WIT.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are the two from the forward clutch which are identical.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And the comparison of the two DD pistons:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can see the obvious height difference:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This made up for the gap that I had, and my clearance is now dead on spec. 2.05mm.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Did you measure the exact difference between the two direct clutch pistons? It seems like you went from 3.5mm to 2.05mm, so I'm guessing it was a full 1.45mm? I'm asking because I am in the middle of rebuilding mine (broken down in Durango) and I ordered the pistons from Ebay, not having read your experience. I put the direct clutch back together today and I have 3.12mm of end play. I already have the 2mm circlip so even if I go up to the 2.5mm I'm still .12mm above spec.

I figure I'll need to order new, quality pistons from WIT in the morning, but if the difference between the two was 1.42mm then I'm gonna have to order a new, smaller circlip as well because I'll be under spec. I compared the two I have (one used original, and the new one) and I see a difference of at least .5mm, but since my OEM one is used and worn it may not be the same measurement as a new one.

Thanks for your help.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

blackglasspirate wrote:

Did you measure the exact difference between the two direct clutch pistons? It seems like you went from 3.5mm to 2.05mm, so I'm guessing it was a full 1.45mm? I'm asking because I am in the middle of rebuilding mine (broken down in Durango) and I ordered the pistons from Ebay, not having read your experience. I put the direct clutch back together today and I have 3.12mm of end play. I already have the 2mm circlip so even if I go up to the 2.5mm I'm still .12mm above spec.

I figure I'll need to order new, quality pistons from WIT in the morning, but if the difference between the two was 1.42mm then I'm gonna have to order a new, smaller circlip as well because I'll be under spec. I compared the two I have (one used original, and the new one) and I see a difference of at least .5mm, but since my OEM one is used and worn it may not be the same measurement as a new one.

Thanks for your help.


Hey there. You are right on the size difference. I would definitely recommend going with the wit piston. Not only for the correct size, but the build quality difference in noticeable.

The thickness of the metal lip makes up some of the height difference, but obviously not all of it. The rest is made up by the rubber being taller as well.

Give WIT the circlip part numbers. The might have the thinner circlips as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

I also talked with Matt briefly about this issue and he mentioned running two retaining rings if you had to.
As long as there is space to fit them and you get the clearances right it should be just fine.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I ended up ordering new pistons from WIT and then two 1.5mm circlips from Auto Atlanta. I plan on putting the WIT piston in with a 1.5mm circlip which, if the height difference is indeed 1.42mm, I should be at 2.2mm end play.

If for whatever reason the height is different and I can't get it right, I can use the aftermarket piston and double 1.5mm circlips, which will get me down to 2.12mm.

I'm hoping the WIT piston works out since it should be better quality, but at least I have a backup option.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Has anyone used the bronze thrust washers from Cobra? Both of the ones that I got have visible tears/creases where each tab was bent down. It makes me a little nervous to use them in case it eventually snaps. The OEM washers didn't look like this.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Yeah I probably would not use those.
Obviously, that would be a bad thing to come loose and have rattling around inside the trans
I ended up using old ones but I did have three sets to pick from so I tried to find the best ones.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Yeah, those were my thoughts too. The crease doesn't seem to go very deep, but it would be incredibly frustrating to put it all back together and then have one of those tabs break off. For any future readers - don't bother with the bronze thrust washers from Cobra!

I don't have multiple sets to choose from, but I did measure the thickness of the used one vs the new one and it's pretty much the exact same. I just saw a little wear on the used ones and there was bronze glitter in the ATF when I took it apart, so I figured I'd replace every bronze bit that I could.

Now I'm waiting for my new pistons from WIT and then the new circlips. I made an order from Auto Atlanta for the circlips, then they emailed me last night saying they don't actually have them in stock. I made another order from CogsCogs and hopefully those actually ship in a reasonable timeframe. In the meantime, if anyone has a spare 1.5mm circlip for the D&R I can have, please PM me! I can swap you for a brand new one once I receive it.

I'm broken down far from home and rebuilding this in a friend's garage, so I'm trying to get back on the road as soon as possible but these small delays are adding up!
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