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BYeaton
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2007
Posts: 362
Location: El Segundo
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| stevespeirs wrote: |
Decided to go back to stock height. The lowered setup when I purchased the Bus last year - rear horseshoe plates, narrowed/adjustable front beam and drop spindles, with 195/50R15 tires on the front and 195/60R15 on the back. Looked okay, but not a great ride and obviously tires are well under the required load index.
Anyway, horseshoe plates have been removed and next up (with the help of a local VW guy) is swapping out the drop spindles for stock spindles and adjusting the beam as close as possible to stock height.
Question - (and not sure why I didn't think of this earlier) but will 14" stock rims and Hankook 185/RA18s work with the narrowed beam, or can I expect rubbing, especially at steering full lock?
Thanks in advance for any advice! |
The clearance of a stock 14" wheel is dependant on your front brake set up, not as much the beam. Do you have an aftermarket disc kit, and if so, which? And how narrow is your beam currently? Hopefully the beam adjusters are in a position where the "highest" setting is stock height or close to it. If this is true, adding stock spindles and adjusting would be fine. Mine is not that way. Odd to have a stock height narrowed beam though, don't see that often. You could compromise and do a very mild drop using only the adjusters with a close to stock tire size.
Regarding your current 15" tires being under the load index, that may not be true at all. The Hankook Ra08's that everyone swears by on here are a 102 load rated tire, which equates to about 1872 lbs (each tire!). Many tires on the market today are load rated above 95 or 100 which are sufficient for these buses. Even a full set of 95 rated tires would support over 6,000 lbs (1521x4) and a stock camper weighs around 3500 lbs. There are plenty of tires on the market today with sufficient load ratings, especially in the low profile world like we need for these lowered buses. Just make sure you do your homework. |
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stevespeirs
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2008
Posts: 310
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| BYeaton wrote: |
| stevespeirs wrote: |
Decided to go back to stock height. The lowered setup when I purchased the Bus last year - rear horseshoe plates, narrowed/adjustable front beam and drop spindles, with 195/50R15 tires on the front and 195/60R15 on the back. Looked okay, but not a great ride and obviously tires are well under the required load index.
Anyway, horseshoe plates have been removed and next up (with the help of a local VW guy) is swapping out the drop spindles for stock spindles and adjusting the beam as close as possible to stock height.
Question - (and not sure why I didn't think of this earlier) but will 14" stock rims and Hankook 185/RA18s work with the narrowed beam, or can I expect rubbing, especially at steering full lock?
Thanks in advance for any advice! |
The clearance of a stock 14" wheel is dependant on your front brake set up, not as much the beam. Do you have an aftermarket disc kit, and if so, which? And how narrow is your beam currently? Hopefully the beam adjusters are in a position where the "highest" setting is stock height or close to it. If this is true, adding stock spindles and adjusting would be fine. Mine is not that way. Odd to have a stock height narrowed beam though, don't see that often. You could compromise and do a very mild drop using only the adjusters with a close to stock tire size. |
Thanks for the reply. The beam is 4" narrowed I believe. Discs appear to be stock. Looks like I can get the adjusters pretty much up to stock height. I'm okay with a slightly lowered drop. Guess we'll see when we switch the spindles out.
| BYeaton wrote: |
Regarding your current 15" tires being under the load index, that may not be true at all. The Hankook Ra08's that everyone swears by on here are a 102 load rated tire, which equates to about 1872 lbs (each tire!). Many tires on the market today are load rated above 95 or 100 which are sufficient for these buses. Even a full set of 95 rated tires would support over 6,000 lbs (1521x4) and a stock camper weighs around 3500 lbs. There are plenty of tires on the market today with sufficient load ratings, especially in the low profile world like we need for these lowered buses. Just make sure you do your homework. |
Old tires were rated 82H and 88H, 6 years old and not really in great shape. Time to be replaced. I appreciate the info on the load ratings. Good to know.
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1979 Microbus |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20279
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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That 4" narrowed beam may cause problems, just like you were wondering. I am betting that with stock wheels and tires you will have inner tire rubbing at full steering lock. It may be tolerable, but at stock height, the Winnebago look will be magnified.
I would begin the search for a stock beam. Selling off your lowering parts will help offset the cost of stock stuff.
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stevespeirs
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2008
Posts: 310
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
I would begin the search for a stock beam. Selling off your lowering parts will help offset the cost of stock stuff. |
That's what I'm thinking. Thanks for the confirmation.
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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On a stock single cab (70), is there a consensus on how low you can go without impacting ride quality? What about if using dropped spindles? In any scenario, does it require new shocks?
_________________
77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20279
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| ivwshane wrote: |
| On a stock single cab (70), is there a consensus on how low you can go without impacting ride quality? What about if using dropped spindles? In any scenario, does it require new shocks? |
Drop spindles will not change suspension geometry, so ride quality will not change. You can simply (not real simple, but not that difficult) readjust the rear springplate/torsion bar setup to bring it down to match.
Other than possibly rubbing stock height (tall?) tires on the wheel wells over large bumps, nothing should change with ride quality, and you should not need to change your shocks.
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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How low could one go with that setup? How low could one go in order to not rub the tires under normal driving conditions?
_________________
77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20279
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| ivwshane wrote: |
| How low could one go with that setup? How low could one go in order to not rub the tires under normal driving conditions? |
Typical baywindow drop spindles are 2 1/2" drop as I recall. To go lower, you start getting into adjustable narrowed front beam and many options out back.
Any lower than drop spindles, you will not want stock tire height. You will also be spending much more time, money, or both, depending on your skills. If you don't have the know how or dough to change your shocks, you may not want to try going very low with your bus.
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| ivwshane wrote: |
| How low could one go with that setup? How low could one go in order to not rub the tires under normal driving conditions? |
Typical baywindow drop spindles are 2 1/2" drop as I recall. To go lower, you start getting into adjustable narrowed front beam and many options out back.
Any lower than drop spindles, you will not want stock tire height. You will also be spending much more time, money, or both, depending on your skills. If you don't have the know how or dough to change your shocks, you may not want to try going very low with your bus. |
I think 2.5” is probably enough.
Thanks!
_________________
77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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Ebo
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Hannover/Germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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Hi Folks,
I am driving my 74 Westi Bay since 15 years. And all the years I rode on a stock beam with adjusters. No dropped spindles! Tiers were 185/80/R14. Short shocks.
The bump-stop was always the tire in the wheel arch  . The original bump-stop-arms were cut off
At the moment I am restoring the van completely. And also the beam needed to be changed -> to much rost.
So I again welded adjusted in a NOS beam.
But over the years I got older and wiser  and started to questioning things. And also due to the fact that I maybe want to reduce tire-size i asked myself: If (because of the reduced tire-diameter) the tire couldn`t be the “bump-stop” any more, the ball-joints will be the next “stop” that bottoms out. While a tire bottoming out isn`t that dangerous, a ball-joint is.
First thought: keeping the bump-stop-arms, but changing the rubbers (or leave them). Just as an “emergency stop” one millimeter before the ball-joints are at the end. Sure it will be rough when hitting the arm, but even better then bottoming out the ball-joints. But maybe the arm is at the wrong position at all. Maybe to high, so blocking way to early even if there is still enough travel in the ball-joint. Then i would waste some space 
My beam is already installed and at the moment the bump-stop-arms are reached. So the ball-joints aren`t at the end and the bump-stop-arms are the stop. But how much travel does this waste? Now with the arms the stock-wheels don`t touch the arch anymore (But close to). So I definitely waste travel, if it was possible with the old beam without the bump-stop-arms.
How do you guys with all the narrowed beams etc handle this problem. These beams don`t have any bump-stops at all. Is there no problem with the ball-joints (i can`t imagine)? Even with heavy pott-holes?
So where should be any bump-stop installed to avoid bottom-out at the ball-joints? There are just some approx statements like “ 4” is the limit on adjusters because after that you won`t have any useable suspension left” etc. But I would like to know the complete drop/hight before bottoming out.
I can`t belive that no-one ever found a solution for a bump-stop that fits the correct! ball-joint travel.
I hope anyone has a hint/idea for me
Thanks |
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Konohiki
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2017
Posts: 6
Location: Logan Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| So I can’t believe I have to post this. I have owned three bays all lowered all running empi five spokes. Now I am putting 5 spokes on my 69’ and they will not go on the rear because they stick out to far. Nates beam in the front horseshoe plates in the rear 195/55/15 Tires. I have seen five spokes on countless slammed bays. I have never seen or heard of this issue. Anyone got an idea? |
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BYeaton
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2007
Posts: 362
Location: El Segundo
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Konohiki wrote: |
| So I can’t believe I have to post this. I have owned three bays all lowered all running empi five spokes. Now I am putting 5 spokes on my 69’ and they will not go on the rear because they stick out to far. Nates beam in the front horseshoe plates in the rear 195/55/15 Tires. I have seen five spokes on countless slammed bays. I have never seen or heard of this issue. Anyone got an idea? |
I have found that there are some differences in clearance between buses, and this may seem obvious. When I was researching wheel offsets/ tire sizes for my bus, I found that the general rule is that a 185 is the biggest tire people will recommend to fit and have sufficient clearance. On lowered bays, a 185/65/15 seems to be a very common size for aftermarket 15" wheels. There is some fender lip rolling/ flaring that can be done but it's minimal.
Personally, I am running 5 spokes with a 205 tire, but I have the Wagenswest 4.5" plates in the rear which also narrow the track width 1/2". I feel this is crucial for a wider tire.
Do you have a 3.25" horseshoe plate?
Which brand 5-spokes do you have? Have all of your other buses in the discussion been this same brand?
How low is the bus? Pics? |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3294
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Ebo wrote: |
Hi Folks,
I am driving my 74 Westi Bay since 15 years. And all the years I rode on a stock beam with adjusters. No dropped spindles! Tiers were 185/80/R14. Short shocks.
The bump-stop was always the tire in the wheel arch . The original bump-stop-arms were cut off
At the moment I am restoring the van completely. And also the beam needed to be changed -> to much rost.
So I again welded adjusted in a NOS beam.
But over the years I got older and wiser and started to questioning things. And also due to the fact that I maybe want to reduce tire-size i asked myself: If (because of the reduced tire-diameter) the tire couldn`t be the “bump-stop” any more, the ball-joints will be the next “stop” that bottoms out. While a tire bottoming out isn`t that dangerous, a ball-joint is.
First thought: keeping the bump-stop-arms, but changing the rubbers (or leave them). Just as an “emergency stop” one millimeter before the ball-joints are at the end. Sure it will be rough when hitting the arm, but even better then bottoming out the ball-joints. But maybe the arm is at the wrong position at all. Maybe to high, so blocking way to early even if there is still enough travel in the ball-joint. Then i would waste some space
My beam is already installed and at the moment the bump-stop-arms are reached. So the ball-joints aren`t at the end and the bump-stop-arms are the stop. But how much travel does this waste? Now with the arms the stock-wheels don`t touch the arch anymore (But close to). So I definitely waste travel, if it was possible with the old beam without the bump-stop-arms.
How do you guys with all the narrowed beams etc handle this problem. These beams don`t have any bump-stops at all. Is there no problem with the ball-joints (i can`t imagine)? Even with heavy pott-holes?
So where should be any bump-stop installed to avoid bottom-out at the ball-joints? There are just some approx statements like “ 4” is the limit on adjusters because after that you won`t have any useable suspension left” etc. But I would like to know the complete drop/hight before bottoming out.
I can`t belive that no-one ever found a solution for a bump-stop that fits the correct! ball-joint travel.
I hope anyone has a hint/idea for me
Thanks |
#1 thing that should go on any vehicle when lowering it is drop spindles. A good correct set of drop spindles will leave all the other suspension components and geometry in stock positions, but raise the wheel UP in relation to the rest of the body.
When you try and lower it with adjusters only, you are maxing out the ball joints, changing the angle of the torsion arms, messing with tie-rod angles, and shock lengths. Every one of these issues will mess with the ride, handling, steering, and durability of the parts. A simple pair of drop spindles will leave every one of these problems alone, and ONLY lower the vehicle. Steering, ball joint angles, torsion arm angles, will all stay in the stock positions.
When shopping for bus drop spindles, make sure to get some that are up to the task. There is one company building modified stock parts with horrible unsafe engineering, and scary welding, and they have been known to break. Use common sense and check the feedback of the builder before spending money on sketchy suspension parts.
If you want really low, then you will need a combo of drop spindles AND adjusters.
Brian
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Konohiki
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2017
Posts: 6
Location: Logan Utah
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Running 3.25 horseshoe plates same that I have used before. The wheels are cip1 five spokes I’ve had OG empis before. As far as I know all five spokes have the same offset and frontset. Still debating on how low to go. right now just HS plates springplates in stock position. I need a minimum of 1” to clear the wheel well |
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BYeaton
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2007
Posts: 362
Location: El Segundo
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Konohiki wrote: |
| Running 3.25 horseshoe plates same that I have used before. The wheels are cip1 five spokes I’ve had OG empis before. As far as I know all five spokes have the same offset and frontset. Still debating on how low to go. right now just HS plates spring plates in stock position. I need a minimum of 1” to clear the wheel well |
Just double checked the wheel specs. My 5-spokes which are American Eagle brand are 5.5 width with 3.75" backspace. From CIP1, they sell their house brand wheel as well as the EMPI wheel. The CIP wheel is 5.5 and 3.75 and the EMPI wheel is 5.5 and 4.
I will say, without the offset plates I have, I would have clearance issues. Maybe not with a 185 tire though, but it would be VERY close.
There are a couple aftermarket wheels with slightly better backspace/frontspace specs that would give you around 1/4" more clearance (CIP wide 5 fuchs, empi dish) but it's not much. For reference the stock wheels on your 69 should be 14x5 with 4.875" BS, creating a 1.125" Front space. That's close to 1.5" more fender clearance than the 5 spokes you have.
Question: have you mocked up both sides? Is the clearance issue identical on both sides? |
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Konohiki
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2017
Posts: 6
Location: Logan Utah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| BYeaton wrote: |
| Konohiki wrote: |
| Running 3.25 horseshoe plates same that I have used before. The wheels are cip1 five spokes I’ve had OG empis before. As far as I know all five spokes have the same offset and frontset. Still debating on how low to go. right now just HS plates spring plates in stock position. I need a minimum of 1” to clear the wheel well |
Just double checked the wheel specs. My 5-spokes which are American Eagle brand are 5.5 width with 3.75" backspace. From CIP1, they sell their house brand wheel as well as the EMPI wheel. The CIP wheel is 5.5 and 3.75 and the EMPI wheel is 5.5 and 4.
I will say, without the offset plates I have, I would have clearance issues. Maybe not with a 185 tire though, but it would be VERY close.
There are a couple aftermarket wheels with slightly better backspace/frontspace specs that would give you around 1/4" more clearance (CIP wide 5 fuchs, empi dish) but it's not much. For reference the stock wheels on your 69 should be 14x5 with 4.875" BS, creating a 1.125" Front space. That's close to 1.5" more fender clearance than the 5 spokes you have.
Question: have you mocked up both sides? Is the clearance issue identical on both sides? |
Mahalo bheaton ya both sides I think I’m just gonna go full meal deal airride and narrow the rear |
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BYeaton
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2007
Posts: 362
Location: El Segundo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Konohiki wrote: |
| Mahalo bheaton ya both sides I think I’m just gonna go full meal deal airride and narrow the rear |
 Well why didn't you say so! Post pics please |
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gumbajv
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2005
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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Before narrowing the rear and going to air suspension ( which will give less than a stellar ride) you might look into have the wheels widened.
As a reference, on my '68 d/c with a re-drilled rear hubs (to 5x130), stock spring plates (lowered a few inches) and slightly rolled fenders I run a 9x17 3 pc. Fuchs with a 245/40/17 tire. The backspacing is 6" and I use a 1/8" spacer. Camber is 2 degrees. I've used a couple of different 911 rear shocks, including RSR race shocks, custom Wevo/Ohlins adjustable shocks w/coil over helper springs, and I have a pair of a Smart Racing/Fox shocks which are nitrogen filled and adjustable. The least expensive route would be a used pair of 911 Bilstein shocks to start, then have them re-valve to your liking if needed.
[img]http://tinyurl.com/ph6qbkg[/img] |
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Trashman
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2016
Posts: 280
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| gumbajv wrote: |
| Before narrowing the rear and going to air suspension ( which will give less than a stellar ride) you might look into have the wheels widened. |
Although I disagree that a narrowed rear and air suspension yields a sub-par ride quality, because when done right it is in my opinion the best riding suspension for a lowered bus, but it is definitely overkill if you are just trying to fit a wider wheel. The amount of things that need to be modified to narrow the rear end of a bus is pretty crazy. Not only do you just need to narrow the torsion housing, but you need to narrow the torsion rods, move the mounts for the trailing arms inward, get shorter axles, etc. I would either just get a new set of wheels that fit or go get the ones that you already have machined to fit. No need to over complicate something because trust me, when you start doing extreme things like that, you'll starting finding something else now won't fit right because of the modifications and it has the potential to snowball. Just my 2 cents.
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Ebo
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Hannover/Germany
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering a Bay FAQ |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
#1 thing that should go on any vehicle when lowering it is drop spindles. A good correct set of drop spindles will leave all the other suspension components and geometry in stock positions, but raise the wheel UP in relation to the rest of the body.
When you try and lower it with adjusters only, you are maxing out the ball joints, changing the angle of the torsion arms, messing with tie-rod angles, and shock lengths. Every one of these issues will mess with the ride, handling, steering, and durability of the parts. A simple pair of drop spindles will leave every one of these problems alone, and ONLY lower the vehicle. Steering, ball joint angles, torsion arm angles, will all stay in the stock positions.
When shopping for bus drop spindles, make sure to get some that are up to the task. There is one company building modified stock parts with horrible unsafe engineering, and scary welding, and they have been known to break. Use common sense and check the feedback of the builder before spending money on sketchy suspension parts.
If you want really low, then you will need a combo of drop spindles AND adjusters.
Brian |
Thanks Brian,
Yes for sure. You are right. But the crazy contradictory thing is that after german law dropped spindles aren`t allowed. This is due to the fact that not a single dropped spindle on the market (for bay) has the needed certificates. So if you want to put your bay on the road legally, the only way is a beam with adjusters. These adjusters are possible to legalize. So the question is still: What is the max drop I can do with just adjusters.
In the meanwhile i did some further test by my own. I „cleared“ the bumps-stops a bit, so that the beam could go some milimeters lower. This is enough to bottom out the ball-joints.
So my conclusion is: Removing the bump-stop-arms won`t give you any more travel. If the beam hits the bumpstop (metal on metal, not rubber!) it is just some milimeters before the ball-joint-travel is at an end.
So far my thoughts.
Cheers |
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