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Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler)
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wcfvw69
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Nice score!^^


I do find it interesting that the internet or this site can so often describe this part or that part as being unobtanium. I then visit a swap meet and see plenty of them for sale. The seller is usually a retired person that's not computer savvy nor do they want to post parts for sale on the internet.

One part that's fun for me in this hobby is trying to track down a hard to find NOS part that's needed. Thank god for the internet and networking. Rarely do I strike out when looking for something. Very Happy
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Richard was selling VW factory pieces at one time - I know because I bought three from him. VW had those parts made in many different factories though, maybe you got different ones. They do get stiffer with age. They should be pliable to bend a little but not compress. That allows them to act a little like a universal joint but they don't compress or stretch when turning.
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Richard Davies
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

When I owned OE VeeDub Genuine German Couplers were still available.
211-415-417. These flexed just like the ones I have now. The only difference was the VW Part number, Logos and 'Germany' on the couplers.
See note below:
Folding/bending one in half....is not a test of its torsional strength.

I went ahead and bought several of the couplers recommended in this thread to compare and have on hand should replacement day arrive. I got this one recommended by Bob (Hoody). This coupler is the best of the three. Very clean looking and good rubber. The metal inserts have a few burs that need to be cleaned up, but otherwise its a nice part. If you believe in the taco folding test (I do not, per reasons stated by Ray and others here) this coupler is the most difficult to bend. Of the other two couplers pictured here one is from Wolfsburg West and the other from CIP1. Both seem like they should work just fine too, but are easier to fold.

Also....molded rubber parts...especially reinforced layered rubber parts.....do not have the same strength in all directions. Folding/bending one in half....is not a test of its torsional strength.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

The ones i got from Richard Davies bent in half VERY easy with 2 fingers, like a soft slice of bread. The metal inserts were not even vulcanized into the rubber. I was very disappointed with them.

@ Richard;
Yes you probably did sell the good original VW genuine ones many years ago,
but what your selling now is total junk, Basically selling a China/Asian copy??item was totally not as described; even the VW bag they came in had a poorly made photocopied VW ORIGINAL PARTS sticker stuck on the bag. Confused that is why i returned all 50 of them back to you.
You were nice enough to refund my money.thanks! - and i have no issue with you selling these, i am just sharing my experience on the forum.
and i guess some people dont know the difference, but i do Wink

The 9x original ones i found are genuine original VW ones and are stiff, they have maybe 1mm of flex, you can feel they are made of high quality material. These were stored dry, cool and in the dark so they do not have any ageing to them or hardening.

any way, i have spent wayy to much time on this,
its been fun and a interesting hunt.
good luck to you all
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

in defense of Richard - the originals in my bus had metal pieces that popped out and were not vulcanized. Any rubber part hardens with age even if coated stored in the dark and dry place. It ages less that way but it still ages. I've bought many things from Richard and never had a problem. Also VWNutter - you are in Germany I believe and may have better luck finding things than the rest of us. Not everyone here will be as lucky as you to have an old VW dealer nearby with a plethora of old parts. If VW supported 45 - 50 year old cars, which would be insane, then this discussion would not take place at all. We are limited to what is reproduced or if lucky made by the same companies that always made it. I need a new T4 FI case, I'd love to be able to go visit a dealer for one.
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Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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Richard Davies
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

vw nutter wrote:
The ones i got from Richard Davies bent in half VERY easy with 2 fingers, like a soft slice of bread. The metal inserts were not even vulcanized into the rubber. I was very disappointed with them.

@ Richard;
Yes you probably did sell the good original VW genuine ones many years ago,
but what your selling now is total junk, Basically selling a China/Asian copy??item was totally not as described; even the VW bag they came in had a poorly made photocopied VW ORIGINAL PARTS sticker stuck on the bag. Confused that is why i returned all 50 of them back to you.
You were nice enough to refund my money.thanks! - and i have no issue with you selling these, i am just sharing my experience on the forum.
and i guess some people dont know the difference, but i do Wink

The 9x original ones i found are genuine original VW ones and are stiff, they have maybe 1mm of flex, you can feel they are made of high quality material. These were stored dry, cool and in the dark so they do not have any ageing to them or hardening.

any way, i have spent wayy to much time on this,
its been fun and a interesting hunt.
good luck to you all


A. You didn't install one
B. You must have very hard bread in Germany. Very Happy Very Happy
C Any NOS ones you find will be stiff because like all rubber parts they are harden with time
D As I said before the genuine ones I sold up to 2011 flexed
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Quote:
A. You didn't install one
B. You must have very hard bread in Germany. Very Happy Very Happy
C Any NOS ones you find will be stiff because like all rubber parts they are harden with time
D As I said before the genuine ones I sold up to 2011 flexed



A) No need, would of been a waste of time installing the RD one, since they were exactly the same as a friend had installed for 6 months Confused QUALITY yeah??

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/b]

B)Knowing the difference between quality & JUNK....YES absolutely! goes the same for bread. Wink

C)I totally disagree, there is "rubber" and then there is "rubber".
I have plenty of NOS 50yr old rubber seals and other parts, and are still soft and perfect.....
most "rubber products now are made to a $$ price NOT to a quality or OE specification. Idea
Just look at CV joint rubber boots, most split/crack in a VERY short time.
I also think a lot of owners think once they install a shiny "NEW" part think its sweet and will be fine for the next 10 years, where actually these "quality"parts are lasting 6months or less,if that and then are ready for the trash. pretty sad. sellers are even cheeky enough to say "German Quality",
I am definitely NOT fooled.

D)flexed yes sure but not folded in half like a sloppy taco, ewww
and now in 2019, the good old bait and switch Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Quote:
I returned them all back to him.


Take the photo before you sent them all back? Bending like that doesn't mean it failed. That coupler is supposed to protect someone from being impaled by the steering shaft. To me flexible that way is only bad if it is also flexible compressing. That is the real test. All I can say is that if I had a choice yes yours would be nice but this thread would not be 17 pages long if everyone could walk into a dealer and get a NOS coupler.
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Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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ivwshane
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

I cannot comment on the quality of Davies part as it’s the only one I’ve dealt with and I haven’t installed it yet either:(

That being said, as to its bend-ability, it does bend but no where close to the previous picture.

To show you how much it does bend with some weight, I hung the inner part of a heat exchanger from the coupler.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

I like your test method. I believe this should now be the test standard for steering couplers. The Ivwshane HE deflection test. Any other method such as taco folding or durometer are hereby deemed to be bogus! By the way, what is the estimated mass of the heat exchanger innards?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

TomWesty wrote:
I like your test method. I believe this should now be the test standard for steering couplers. The Ivwshane HE deflection test. Any other method such as taco folding or durometer are hereby deemed to be bogus! By the way, what is the estimated mass of the heat exchanger innards?


Lol I have no idea, I stopped using scales once I got fat;)
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

As Richard Davies noted as well as SGKent.....how it folds means nothing. You are flat out testing in the wrong axis. These parts should have a "scrim" or reinforcement layer in them.....that keeps them from stretching laterally. That is all that matters.

And....not one person here is actually testing or has tested....for durometer or actual hardness. Not using the folding test. Use a durometer gauge.
One could say that the folding test....somewhat....demonstrates a little bit about the modulus of elasticity....but again ....in the wrong axis. The coupler is not supposed to be strong to prevent folding. Its supposex ti be strong laterally...to prevent spreading and tearing.

Part of that is about density of molding (how much prressure applied to the rubber while in the mold)...and part of that is about the molded in reinforcing scrim.

A better quick test....would be to hang an NOS part from one hole on a pin....and hang a weight from another...and see how far in the flat axis.....it stretches and the compare the same test to a new part. But that will also have variation due to the increase in actual durometer with age.
The only way I know to somewhat offset that....is to know what the durometer was on the NOS part when new.....so you can calculate how much it increased.

No one knows as far as I know....what the original durometer spec was or even what kind of rubber it was. I may pull the ancient one from my 412....same part #....next week and see if I can determine rubber type with a flame test.

So for the moment....the only sure way to see if a new part is good....is to install it and drive on it for a while. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that a part off of some other brand of car is interchangeable and still available from the dealer new. Ford, Chevy, Toyota, might be worth checking to see what is out there.

As for what is available aftermarket, I suspect some of these are nothing more than pieces cut out of conveyor belting and then drilled with inserts pushed into the holes. Maybe that is what the originals were to, but dressed up a bit more.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Could a hockey puck make a big enough diameter basis for a coupler.

Looks a bit small.

Are there oversized pucks for old guy hockey, or maybe an internet fetish?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Are there oversized pucks for old guy hockey, or maybe an internet fetish?


They would have to have the woven inner structure which gave the originals their strength… If you thought Type 4 parts were expensive, you should check out the boutique adult shops…… Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

I have one of these coming on Friday. Hopefully, it's one of the good ones.
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D211%2D415%2D417%2DGR
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadMax78 wrote:
We also had one installed without the VW logo on it, it failed after about 1500 miles while parallel parking. The coupling just "folds" instead of turns. We are running larger tyres though, so the load is increased. I think it probably won't fail while driving since the load is considerably higher during manoeuvring. Anyway, just sharing my experience, if I were you I'd replace the coupling if it's non-VW. Better safe than sorry.

I found a pic on my old phone:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(Failed one on the left which has been distorted and bushes fell out, new VW one on the right)

Does look a little different from yours.



Fold/ taco test confirmed also by Madmax...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) Reply with quote

it is nice to hear you are going to share all those original ones you found with everyone else at the same cost of the ones you don't like. The community thanks you.
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Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vw nutter wrote:
Fold/ taco test confirmed also by Madmax...


I can't see what Madmax's experience with an installed coupling has to do with the Davies' coupling being able to be bent
by hand. The forces in the two situations are completely different. It is also clear from Madmax's photo that his "bad" coupling
is not the same one supplied by Davies, as the shapes of the two couplings are not the same.

Also, I just compared a rough electrical resistance test on both a "genuine" (or a good counterfeit of same)
VW coupling, and a coupling I just received from Davies.
The VW coupling was showing significant conductivity between the bushings ( ~900 ohms), and even less when the probes were
pushed into the rubber an inch or so apart. It has earlier been reported several times that some couplings, and "VW"-marked couplings
in particular, will cause the horn to unexpectedly sound in early bay busses, especially when stressing the coupling during turns.
On the Davies coupling, I could not get any reading from my meter, no matter how close I put the probes on the coupling. This means,
of course, that the Davies coupling will be preferable for use on early (i.e. before VW changed how the horn circuit works) bays, assuming
it is otherwise suitable for use.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
vw nutter wrote:
Fold/ taco test confirmed also by Madmax...


I can't see what Madmax's experience with an installed coupling has to do with the Davies' coupling being able to be bent
by hand. The forces in the two situations are completely different. It is also clear from Madmax's photo that his "bad" coupling
is not the same one supplied by Davies, as the shapes of the two couplings are not the same.

Also, I just compared a rough electrical resistance test on both a "genuine" (or a good counterfeit of same)
VW coupling, and a coupling I just received from Davies.
The VW coupling was showing significant conductivity between the bushings ( ~900 ohms), and even less when the probes were
pushed into the rubber an inch or so apart. It has earlier been reported several times that some couplings, and "VW"-marked couplings
in particular, will cause the horn to unexpectedly sound in early bay busses, especially when stressing the coupling during turns.
On the Davies coupling, I could not get any reading from my meter, no matter how close I put the probes on the coupling. This means,
of course, that the Davies coupling will be preferable for use on early (i.e. before VW changed how the horn circuit works) bays, assuming
it is otherwise suitable for use.


The conductivity problem is interesting. However....really what you mean is that it has conductivity...but its low...meaning it some resistance to direct conductivity at 900 ohms. While not huge resistance....its decent. My point...is...can you put the meter on the surface and get "continuity"?

Also...this is measuring surface resistivity and not volume resistivity which would tell you a little more about whats going on.

Its also interesting that as you note...pushing the probes farther apart....raises the resistance (which is normal with something that is of low conductivity).
Question:...have you tried piercing the surface with the probes and seeing what the reading is?

We are not yet sure what the rubber family is. However....I would suspect its EPDM. That is one of the most common rubber types used to purposely MAKE conductive rubber.

The addition of carbon and some other metals as cross linkers and curing agents...makes it conductive.

Or...it could be an accident caused by poor mixing allowing too much closely packed carbon at the surface. But...a lot of closely packed carbon would generally make it a higher resistance than 900 ohms.

That last one is why I would like to see what the difference is when the probes are pushed through the surface to see the conductivity of the interior.

So if it is purposely made conductive.....one of the ONLY reasons I can think of...and one of the most common uses for conductive rubber products...is EMF shielding. It may have been done to prevent radio signal or static noise from the chassis and tires from coming through the ground system.

If thats the case its also possible that these couplers have been conductive from the very start....but properly done. There is no problem with this coupler being MILDLY "conductive" with a very high resistance....as long as its not able to create continuity for the horn linkage. Ray
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